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Churchill wanted to use captured Nazi troops to drive the Soviet Union out of Eastern Europe

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by PzJgr, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. Totenkopf

    Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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    It is a viable theory that had the Allies used a nuclear weapon on them that he would have dropped Poison gas all over Europe's western Capitals. Even though the Allies had better planes, the Soviet Air Force was still huge.
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Did the Allies have a bomber capable of reaching Moscow and RETURNING ?And what about air cover by fighters ? Probably the whole issue (nuking Moscow ) being no more than a wet dream of Churchill .
     
  3. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Doolitle never let that get in his way.. If you were to ask any cold war Vulcan or b52 crew then they would not think much of their ability to make it home and still they would go.
     
  4. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    The B-29 could easily reach Moscow from the British Isles, or Egypt both of which were in allied hands, or even from New Delhi India if needed. All well within its operational range.

    As to fighter cover, the VVS would be hard pressed to reach the height at which the B-29 Silverplates would drop their atomics, over 35,000 feet. During the war years themselves they received about 90%+ of their avgas from the USA, that wouldn't be there to use in this case. If needed these P-82 twin Mustangs would have filled the bill nicely I suspect, and wouldn't have been canceled after only 20 were built.

    The first production model was the P-82B (Model NA-123), with a pair of Packard Merlin V-1560-19/21 engines. Five hundred production P-82Bs were ordered by the USAAF. These P-82Bs were basically similar to the XP-82, but differed in having provisions for underwing racks capable of carrying four 1000-pound bombs, two 2000-pound bombs, or 25 5-inch rockets. A central pod carrying eight additional 0.50-inch machine guns could also be fitted.

    The P-82B was one of the hottest piston-engined fighters of the war. Maximum speed was 482 mph at 25,100 feet. Normal range was 1390 miles at 227 mph, 1280 miles with a 4000-pound bomb load. Service ceiling was 41,600 feet, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 7 minutes. Weights were 13,405 pounds empty, 19,100 pounds normal loaded, and 22,000 pounds maximum. Dimensions were wingspan 51 feet 3 inches, length 38 feet 1 inches, height 13 feet 10 inches, and wing area of 408 square feet.

    Only twenty of these P-82Bs had been built by the time of V-J Day (serials were 44-65160/65179). None of these planes managed to get overseas before the end of the war. The end of the war against Japan resulted in the cancellation of the remaining 480 of these P-82Bs.
    On February 28, 1947, P-82B serial number 44-65168 piloted by Robert E. Thacker and his copilot John M. Ard flew nonstop without refueling from Hickam Field, Hawaii to LaGuardia Airport, New York, covering a distance of 4968 miles in 14 hours 31 minutes 50 seconds for an average speed of 342 mph. This airplane, named *Betty Joe* after Thacker's wife, carried four external fuel tanks under the wings for this flight. This was the longest unrefuelled flight ever carried out by a piston-engined fighter. The record still stands.

    See:

    http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p82_3.html

    It would still have taken an aggressive move by the USSR and Stalin for that to come to the fore, and that wasn't going to happen, and Patton wasn't being listened to (thank goodness). This is a non-starter under any circumstances, everybody was tired of war, and just wanted to get their men home, and start a "non-war" life style up again.
     
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  5. GI546

    GI546 Member

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    the only problem i can see with that is the captured german troops might turn on the allies in battle and that they defect back to the nazis...
    ...unless they would be brainwashed....:confused:
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    There are a number of problems or potential problems with using former German soldiers against the Soviets in this scenario. The above is not one of them.
     
  7. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Stupid me :first looking at the available information and then asking stupid questions,especially when Brndirt 1 is looking
     
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  8. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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  9. Smithson

    Smithson Member

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    This could be true because stalin was complaining about the british not helping them and they were getting pushed back!
     
  10. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Tried to read the articall but it stank. This Hastings must have sat down that morning and pondered what he might write that would spin the crank of the nazifanbois. Churchill was suffering a bit from 'fatigue' by 1945. One of the several reasons Atlee replaced him that year. After retiring from the US Army Eisenhower was asked by interviewer about "the plan to fight the USSR". Ike replied that there was some talk about that from some politicians but no one took it very seriously. From that interview and other remarks by US officers like Bradley, Hodge, Devers it appears some proforma discussion was made and some staff officers assigned to make up a 'Plan' to show to the politician Ike refered to.
     
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  11. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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  12. Totenkopf

    Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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    Seeing as the Nazis wouldnt exist after Germany's defeat...
     
  13. Potsdammer

    Potsdammer Member

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    As the Wehrmacht had been fighting the Russians for the best part of 3 years and bearing in mind the Soviet reatment in places like Köenigsberg and Nemmersdorf (whatever the truth was or is) was enough to convince them to return to fight. The only problem was that Hitler had always thought that the Allies would see the error of their ways and fight the red beast but the allies had fought with them against national socialism so there would be an impression of a possible stitch up, or a fear of being used as canon practice, amongst the Wehrmacht.

    Sorry perhaps that wasn't too clear but I feel that they would not trust the Allies as, in their eyes, they had been responsible from preventing the Nazis from crushing the Soviets and then to accept what the great dictator had been saying from the beginning that the Soviets were the true enemy won't just have caused problems at the time but would have sown the seeds for a greater problem in the German lands later. In order to allow the Germans to participate would have meant re armanent, and realignment and would have allowed the Nazis ,who only hid during the last days of the war, to reappear as renaissance figures for Western Europe. perhaps the whole point of war would have seemed a little pointless.
     
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  14. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    I have serious doubts as to what Germans would be available for this excursion. Even Hitler could only field third rate divisions at the end. Why would anyone do better?
     
  15. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    No one would. ;)
     
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  16. cylon47

    cylon47 Member

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    why german why not the soviet troops the germans had caputured against their own men.
     
  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Most Soviet troops in German captivity died of starvation. The ones which had survived were liberated by the Red Army only to be sent to the Gulags for "allowing to be captured".
     
  18. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Soviet troops the Germans captured were basically worthless. They were knocked around easily in Normandy and were considered third rate troops. My question is still not answered: What was left of the German Army, except "foot-and-eye" cases, old men and Hilter Jungend? I can't think of any battle worthy troops the Germans have got left; unless they want to reopen the POW pen, they would not have much to work on. Even so, they would have no equipment and possibly of low morale.
     
  19. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    what was left of the German army ? I should say:some 6 million;were there a lot of battle worthy troops ? Idon't know What is a lot ?Were they all foot-and -aye cases,old men and Hitlerjugend ? Off course not .
     
  20. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Are these so called 6 million troops of proper age? or are they the 14-17 and the over 55yr old conscripts?
     

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