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CVE airgroups & operations

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by churchill17sp, Aug 15, 2006.

  1. churchill17sp

    churchill17sp New Member

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    I am more familiar with CVE's used in British service; this involved different types of airgroups:
    1. A composite group of say 10 Hellcats + 4 Avengers, for photo-recon, strike, invasion support, ASW patrol, i.e. used in East Indies fleet area with many islands.
    2. "Fighter Support Carriers" with a complement of 24 Seafires; used in the Mediterranean, East Indies Fleet area and BPF areas.
    3. Atlantic convoy patrol, with Hurricane IIc fighters/bomber destroyers and Swordfish ASW.
    Would like to know more about U.S. CVE airgroups and the operations they took part in.
    Did the U.S. use aircraft other than Wildcats and Avengers on CVE's? And what sort of operations were they tailored for?
    Thanks!
     
  2. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    If you go to the Order of Battle page at Navweaps, you can see the air groups of the carriers invovled in the Samar battle. You will notice that the converted oilers carried Hellcats. There might be good info in the various volumes of Morison's History of US Naval Operations. Don't forget to check the section on Dragoon, where CVE's gave important air cover.
     
  3. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    I believe US CVEs only carried fighters (mostly F2M, but a few larger, faster ones, the oiler conversions, were able to operate F6F) and torpedo bombers on operations, but would carry almost any type of aircraft, including land based fighters, when performing ferrying or forward replacement operations.
     
  4. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    US CVE's carried a variety of aircraft: Fighters/Scouts/Dive Bombers it could carry and "launch" them all!
    I know just that by looking for the first CVE the USS Long Island and found out it even had SB2U Vindicators :eek:

    http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/001.htm
     
  5. Quillin

    Quillin New Member

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    is that good or bad?
     
  6. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Bad...they were called Vibrators due to the noise and vibrations that one endured while flying in it! They were already obsolete at the start of the war!
     
  7. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    I've heard nickname "wind indicator" for Vindicators. Wonder where that comes... :D
     
  8. Quillin

    Quillin New Member

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    but then again, seeing the amount of CVE's that were builded to protect convoys on the atlantic against U-boats i'm not suprised. they builded so many CVE's that they could use every plane they had to fill those carriers
    accourding to a quick search on ubat.net , the US had about 120 CVE's.
     
  9. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    The composite air groups of the CVEs did not include dive bombers, only fighters and torp bombers. Long Island was somewhat unique in that she was used for experimental purposes and all CVEs were used to ferry all types of aircraft.
     
  10. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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  11. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    Ome Joop,

    You are right, which is why it is best to never make generlizations. all the CVEs the composite groups with SBDs served on were Sangamon class converted from oilers and were big enough to handle a larger air group than the Bouge's or Casablanca's. I believe they were also the only CVEs to have F6F's as part of their air groups.

    If the Sangamon's had been faster they would have made good light carrires.
     
  12. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    canambridge,

    I just hope i didn't offend you (i can get carried away at times):oops:
    Looking at the information on those sites i noticed some nice statistics :cool:

    Sangamon Class (CVE):
    Displacement: 23,350 tons (full load)
    Length: 553'
    Beam: 75' at water line
    Draft: 32'

    Casablanca Class: (CVE):
    Displacement: 10,982 tons (full load)
    Displacement: 10,982 tons (full load)
    Length: 512'3"
    Beam: 65' at water line
    Draft: 22'4"

    Bogue Class (CVE):
    Displacement: 15,200 tons (full load)
    Length: 495'8"
    Beam: 69' at water line
    Draft: 26'

    Commencement Bay Class (CVE):
    Displacement: 24,100 tons (full load)
    Length: 557'1"
    Beam: 75' at water line
    Draft: 32'

    Yorktown Class (CV):
    Displacement: 19,800 tons
    Length: 827'4"
    Beam: 83' at water line
    Draft: 31'

    Essex Class, Short-Hull Group (CV):
    Displacement: 27,100 tons
    Length: 874'
    Beam: 93' at water line
    Draft: 28'

    Essex Class, Long-Hull Group (CV):
    Displacement: 27,100 tons
    Length: 885'
    Beam: 93' at water line
    Draft: 28'7"

    Independence Class (CVL):
    Displacement: 11,000 tons
    Length: 619'
    Beam: 71' at water line
    Draft: 24'

    Looking at the 2 largest classes of CVE's i noticed that they had a very large displacement...they are bigger than full size CV's (even the smaller CVE's are bigger than the CVL's!)!
    Were does that big displacement come from?
     
  13. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Checked that too

    CVE-91 Makassar Strait CVG-12 F6F-5 Casablanca Class
    CVE-68 Kalinin Bay CVG-12 F6F-5 Casablanca Class
    CVE-16 Nassau, CVE-20 Barnes 44xF6F-3 Bogue Class
    CVE-66 White Planes 34xF6F-3 Casablanca Class
    CVE-70 Fanshaw Bay F6F-5 Casablanca Class

    Also checked out Corsairs to be on the safe site!
    CVE-26 Sangamon F4U-1 Sangamon Class!
    CVE-30 Charger F4U-1 Long Island Class
     
  14. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    No offense Ome Joop, just good info. Keep it coming, I love to learn. :D

    It would be interesting to know how long any of those ships operated air groups with SBDs, F6Fs or F4Us. CVEs ferried almost every type of aircraft, but on active operations they usually operated composite groups of Wildcats and Avengers, with some exceptions as noted. :wink:

    I think the difference in displacments is due to different definitions of displacement. The values for the CVEs are full dispalcement, standard displacement for a Sangamon was 11,400 tons, a Casablanca 7,800 tons. A short hull Essex at full displacement was 36,380 tons, an Independence CVL was 15,100 tons.
     
  15. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Why did they do that...makes it much harder to compare :(

    I can't find anything about Deck Length and Wide either as that would also be important!
     
  16. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    Other reason for such high displacement of Sangamon-class is the fact that they were conversions. No conversion ever had been efficient use of tonnage, for instance Saratoga and Lexington were conversions and were about equal to Yorktown class but displaced almost twice as much.

    Commencement Bay-class was, on the other hand, built as carrier from keel up but they were developed from Sangamons.
    Both of these classes could carry enormous amounts of fuel oil, that also swelled their full load displacement.

    About Independence-class: They were conversions too, from a light cruiser. Therefore they didn't have that much displacement to start with.
     
  17. churchill17sp

    churchill17sp New Member

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    Thanks very much for the replies; the main air complement I have read about was Wildcats/Avengers i.e. Samar battle, against Japanese heavy cruisers.
     
  18. maxs75

    maxs75 recruit

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    CVE

    Hi there,

    The US CVE of the Casablanca class (50 ships) that operated in support of amphibious operations had a composite squadron (VC) onboard. The sqn. was made by 12-16 F4F or FM (later in the FM-2 version, not F2M) Wildcats and 9-12 TFBF/TBM Avengers. The fighter complement was raised to up to 24 Wildcats in 1945 against the threat of kamikaze. Teh Avngers were reduced to 9 or even 6 planes.
    Anyway they were able to operate Hellcats F6F, and Tulagi and Kasaan bay had VF-74 and VOF-1 (both with about 24 F6F) on board for the southern France op. in 1944. The same for the Bogue class, once again with exception of op. Galvanic, in which they had Hellcats

    The bigger CVE of the Sangamon/Commencement bay classes had an Air group onboard, made by a VGF and a VGS squadron (later VF+VC, and later VF+VT). In 1942-43 there were about 12 Wildcat, 9 Dauntless (SBD) and 9 Avengers. From late 1943 (op. Galvanic) the F6F were onboard instead Wildcats. Only Santee, still in the Atlantic retained Wildcats till the end of 1944.
    From spring 1944, the 3 Sangamon, Suwannee and Chenango that were in Pacific left home the not-folding wings Dauntless for more Hellcats (and the VC became VT, losing the bomber component).
    When in 1945 at Okinawa the new Commencement bay arrived in the theater of war, they had on board the Marine carrier air groups (VMF+VMTB squadrons). They had F4U/FG Corsairs instead of Hellcats, and Avengers, for a total of about 30-32 planes. a few photo Hellcats were also onboard.

    AFAIK all other CVG-12 and so on F6F onboard Casablancas were for transport only. VF-12, part of CVG-12 was intended for fleet carriers. It was on Saratoga in 43-44 and Randolph in 1945.
    The 7th Corsair made some trials on Sangamon in september 1942 IIRC, and Charger was used for training naval pilots of USN or FAA, so it saw landing of many types of planes. The same for Long Island.
    See also: http://ww2air.altervista.org/

    HTH
    Regards
    Max
     
  19. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

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    During the Marianas Campaign, P-47D razorback Thunderbolts were transported to Saipan on the USS Natoma Bay (CVE62), USS Sargent Bay (CVE83) and USS Manila Bay (CVE61).
    These escort carriers were of the Casablanca-Class, and carried a total of 73 Thunderbolts for delivery to Aslito Airstrip, Saipan.
    Pilots flew their T-Bolts off the CVEs with just enough fuel and minimum ammunition, or none at all--they was heavy-rascals in the first-place-- to get them airborne.
    After landing at Aslito, they were serviced, fueled, armed and sent into battle with ground-crews working under enemy-fire.

    Tim
     
  20. maxs75

    maxs75 recruit

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    Marianas and P-47

    Hoosier,according to DANFS:

    MAnila Bay
    Natoma Bay:
    So I dont' know if they were really short of fuel. IIRC they were launched by catapult, and I guess they were not much heavier than a fully equipped TBM.

    Sargent Bay possibly transported the third FS of 318th FG, but it was some time after the arrival of the first two.

    AFAIK, and according to DANFS, each CVE carried 37 P-47D, so they were 74 in total only on board Manila and Natoma Bay.
    I guess Sargent Bay carried 37 more.

    Regards
    Max
     

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