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Czechoslovakia

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by silentmidgetassasin, Nov 29, 2004.

  1. silentmidgetassasin

    silentmidgetassasin Member

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    Question: if Hitler had invaded the Sudetenland and started a world war, could the Third Reich have survived considering their precarious economic status?
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The main issue , I guess, is the fact that the Third Reich was not built on peace but getting ready for war and getting the economy in good order with the goods and sources gained thus later on. So the Hitler Reich would have fallen without a war because the money was spent to build the army. So there would be war as long as Hitler was there to decide.
     
  3. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    The German armed forces were strong enough to face its highly professional and well-equipped Czechoslovakian counterpart. However, there were barely 5 German infantry divisions guarding the entire western border with France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland. What if Hitler invades the Sudetenland, facing strong opposition in the mountains, whilst France mobilises 100 divisions into the Rheinland, aided by a couple of Belgian and British units?

    A two-front war which Germany can't win because of her very reduced economical power. We could add to the equation that the Poles would have taken advantage of the situation and invaded Germany somehow, as they did with destroyed Czechoslovakia.
     
  4. silentmidgetassasin

    silentmidgetassasin Member

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    And also addd into consideration Hitler's leadership problem after getting rid of his senior officers. But do you think that the rest of Europe would have done anything even if he had invaded Czechoslovakia? I mean, no one ever did anything after he overthrew the Austrian regime and annexing Austria, and then there was the invasion of Poland. Sure, Britain and France declared war on Germany, but they didn't send any aid to Poland. And besides, Germany was already extremely vulnerable, even though he didn't invade Czechoslovakia, the Third Reich was still on the brink of bancrupcy and very vulnerable, and there were clear signs that Hitler had plans for war, but no one did anything about it.
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    If I got it correct the French politics was aimed at defensive strategies in the 1920´s to 1930´s and the core of this was the Maginot line. So I wonder if they would attack, and as well the politicians in the west had been starting to think that maybe the Versailles Treaty was a bit hard on the Germans and were giving rope to Hitler. I suppose they would go for the economic strangle hold, as they did during WW1 on Germany ,not letting goods enter the Reich.

    AS well I think after the "bloodless" victories how would the Germans react to really going into war at that stage.

    :confused:
     
  6. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    On the contrary, the war couldn't have lasted long, since Beck's anti-Hitler plot would have been put into action. There was the posibility of a military coup d'état.

    France and Great Britain would have mobilised. Poland would have attacked whoever was losing, either Germany or Czechoslovakia.

    Because all of Europe thought that the Anschlüß was a completely German affair (according to Willson's self-determination programme).
     
  7. Deep Web Diver

    Deep Web Diver Member

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    France and Britian made it clear to the Czechoslovaks that if they had not cooperated with the Munich Agreement, Czechoslovakia would have stood alone against Germany. The Munich Agreement was signed in September 1938 and was violated by Germany in March 1939 when Germany overran the remainder of Czechoslovakia.

    France and Britain were unwilling to help the Czechoslovaks in September 1938 when Hitler threatened to invade Czechoslovakia and they were unwilling to help the Czechoslovaks when Hitler seized Czechoslovakia entirely in March 1939.

    [ 02. December 2004, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Deep Web Diver ]
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Sept 10th as the Sudetenland crisis was really getting hot:

    Goering said of the Czechs "This miserable pygmy race without culture, no one knows where it came from, is oppressing a cultured people [Sudeten Germans] and behind it is Moscow and the eternal mask of the Jew devil..."

    http://www.otr.com/munich.html

    --------

    BTW, later on this affected the negotiations in July-Aug 1939 with Stalin as the USSR was not invited to discuss the Czech situation in Munich.
     
  9. SUPER NAZI

    SUPER NAZI banned

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    Im happy we got Annexed.
    They said that Czech citizen moral was the highest in the Third Reich!
     
  10. Major Destruction

    Major Destruction Member

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    There are a number of problems for Germany if CZ decides to defend herself and fight alone.

    Firstly, the Czech defenses would have cost the Germans serious casualties. Secondly any attrition of armour would affect both sides. German and Czech tanks would be destroyed.

    Possibly Poland and Hungary would ally themselves with Germany and carve off pieces of CZ for themselves. Now USSR is going to get worried about this sudden dangerous alliance that has evolved on her border and may take steps to 'neutralise' the situation.

    As it was, Poland did take some of the territory but Germany was not concerned about that as Poland was next on the list to be overrun. But in this scenario how can Germany possibly hope to attack Poland with an armoured force that is reduced by fighting for CZ?

    As it was, Germany had a full complement of tanks for the Poland campaign plus the entire Czech inventory. Assuming the Czech defence is serious, many, if not all, the Czech tanks will be destroyed in the German invasion.

    What of aircraft losses?

    Now it is Early 1939, Czeckoslovakia is defeated and occupied by German, Polish and Hungarian armies and facing extreme Soviet nervousness in the east. France and Britain are doing little or nothing. But German tank production is pitifully inadequate to make up the losses. Panzer mk III's are not even in mass production and the Czech tank factory workers have become refugees, maybe in Russia or Romania.

    What is Hitler's next move?
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Heydrich should know...

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Definitely it would have been too early for Hitler to attack the Czech.However, it does seem that he was truly serious and would have attacked without the Munich negotiations.

    Some thoughts from:

    http://worldatwar.net/photoinfo/peaceinourtime.html

    The effect of the Munich-treaty are twofold. On the one hand, the Czech army was perhaps the best prepared army in 1938 and had the advantage of long prepared defensive positions (although most of these could be avoided by using Austria for an offensive). However, a war might well have shown some surprises for Germany. In addition, a well planned attentate on Hitler was prepared that should take place in the very moment the war started. Most important perhaps, when Hitler occupied the rest of Czechioslovakia some month later he gained important industrial facilities, especially the Skoda-factories - the second largest tank-producing facilities of its time. Several of the German tank divisions were equipped with Skoda-tanks in the campaigns of 39/40.

    On the other hand, though Germany was ill prepared for a war, Great Britain was not prepared at all. Great Britain had in 1938 no modern Antiair guns, and its fighter-force consisted of only 409 fighters - with only five squads of Hurricance (badly equipped) and one squad of Spitfire. As Churchill said in these days: "The equipment of our Air Force is miserable". British experts (Austin Hopkinson) gave the British air force three weeks before a total defeat in a war against Germany. In the following year, the expenses for civil air-defense went up by a factor of five, and large programs to expand the fighter and bomber force were issued.
     
  13. Major Destruction

    Major Destruction Member

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    Sadly the sell-out of CZ was despicable but waht was the alternative?

    Consider this:
    UK offers CZ hope. They say "if you are attacked we will come to your aid"

    something along the lines of the treaty with Poland.............


    But CZ is attacked. The wehrmacht does not like it but Hitler insists. The Czecks fight valiantly. Poland stabs them in the back and USSR takes a piece too. CZ is defeated.

    It is now 1939. January. The Skoda works is badly damaged. CZ tanks are destroyed in the field as are the German panzers. How long now until Germany can rebuild the tank factories? How long until enough tanks are produced to a sufficient level to attempt an attack on Poland?

    Given the record of German tank production this would take several years.

    Any war in eastern Europe would precipitate the reaction of September 1939 to 1938. UK would hasten arms production. France would take the theat seriously. A second campaign in Poland following the first disastrous adventure in CZ would unsettle Hitler's regime, perhaps to the point where marshall law might take over in Germany, deposing Hitler.

    Grmany was no more prepared for world war in 1938 than was UK or France and any minor skirmishing in some faraway place like CZ might not have alerted the world to the menace of nazi domination but it might have............
     
  14. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    From "Oster conspiracy 1938" by Parssinen

    General of Infantry Liebmann ( commander of the Fifth Army, deployed along northern part of West Wall facing Belgium) wrote a formal report on Aug 25 1938 about the defensibility of his assigned area. The forces under his command he deemed wholly inadequate in number and quality. The fortifications in his area were incomplete and only a third would be available by october 1. Liebmann noted that the most optimistic assessment of the West Wall was that it would act as a bluff that might forestall a British and French attack. " But if they attacked" he wrote, " one could count on the left bank of the Rhine being lost before the forces in Bohemia - the bulk of all available active divisions -could intervene". Liebmann never received a reply.
     

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