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Damage - What Size Shell.

Discussion in 'Artillery' started by Ilhawk, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    always interesting to get some architecture background...much thanks...yes, I thought the stone construction pretty solid..?

    yes I see the big difference in the churches.....where is the smaller one located?? what's its significance?

    next question, which guns have the parabola of firing over the church and still land in the church yard? but looking at the one picture of the hole in St Lambertus, it might appear as if some high angle weapon was not used for some of the shelling....

    here's a map of the units and movements
     

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  2. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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    The smaller one is just north of St Lambertus to the left. However I did see a pic that said construction was in 1950.
     
  3. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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    Nice Map btw. [​IMG]

    The 501 and 506 were already there. 327 marched in quick time from the SW corner of LZ W on the west side of the Zonsche Forest. Without looking back at reports, 1BN swung left and ended up on west side of Veghel. 3 BN (401) met the attack in the SE. 1 BN went directly to the Church in reserve and were just beginning to dig in. Nice map btw. Again looking at the aerial, the Germans easily could have seen them from the NW. I just always wondered about this. Bronk, Jack Sherman was there. Maybe you could ask him some questions? He was in the SE part of the yard near the Church front and was one of the one's that did get out. You might even want to call him. Hearing him tell it is very fascinating. Again, not being a weapons person (actually I didn't know much about the 101 when I first started the project) you might ask better questions.

    Don said even the burial team had a very difficult time with the aftermath.

    Would like a full copy of the map if possible.
     
  4. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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  5. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    I misread the chapel's date, 1950. I thought it said 1850 which stylistically it is. That means it may have concrete in it's construction , veneered with brick or tiles. that helps explain the ease of penetrating the roof but not the shoulder. Thanks for the correction .

    Gaines
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    Good points.

    I am a little wary of wartime reports about enemy weapons. It may be that someone there carried out a crater analysis, found fragments and could definitively state the calibre as 150mm. OTOH judgement under fire can sometimes be unreliable, with a disproportionate proportion of units claimed to be hit by "88"s

    The holes made in the side of the church may not be from short rounds. Church towers themselves were commonly a target, as they were often the only vantage points.

    Groups of three rounds might be a salvo from a platoon, but it is hard to walk artillery around a single field. Artillery is very much an area weapon with only half the rounds landing within, say 50m of the mean point of impact. Getting all the rounds in the same field can be an achievement. The concept of "walking rounds around" is more often associated with mortars firing from a much close range.

    Who fired the rounds? If the fire came from the SE then it has to be some indirect fire in support of KG Walther. The only unit in the list with any artillery is the "16th Grenadier Regiment" I have put that in quotes, because the Lexicon der Wehrmacht puts Gren Regt 16 in Rhodes. Whatever unit this was may have had some integral heavy howitzers. Some of the units cobbled together to oppose Market Garden were from the training and replacement system and used equipment from the schools, such as the Pz III from the Sennelager training area.
     
  7. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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  8. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I was reading about this battle last night, in far more general terms.
     
  9. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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    Was this a report you were reading? Generally it isn't real well known. Several years ago I called St. Lambertus and no one there new about it. Several local WW2 experts that focus on 101 paratroopers didn't know about it.

    Generally the paratroopers would move in, the 327 being somewhat more heavily armed would follow. You can take more in a glider than you can carry while parachuting.

    I am curious where some of you get the German records. There are several battles I'm curious about casualties on the other side, especially (at least right now), the fights on the west perimeter of Ophuesden after 327 3BN relieved 506.

    I'll post where it belongs.
     
  10. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Naw, it was a book (more general terms).
     
  11. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting It never Snows in September again...maybe that will have a little something to tell ......or have you read that one??
     
  12. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    Hell's Highway ''most vivid memory...was the shelling they experienced in the churchyard at Veghel'' civilians said the Germans had a spotter in the tower at Erp.....at the Veghel ''convent church'' Gis used the steeple for spotting for arty.....Germans countered with 5 direct hits on the tower....a short time later, tower was destroyed by arty fire....on the 22nd, ''under constant mortar attack''.....

    I take it that steeple was the nunnery in your pic here?

    I've mentioned it before, but my Uncle, who was with the 179th, did not say much at all about the war....one of the very few things he did say, was the Germans could really zero in on you with mortars.....that's not the exact quote, but close to it...it was so long ago, but I still remember that...
     

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  13. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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    Yes and St Lambertus is right next door to the left.

    One thing for sure. It was chaos.
     
  14. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    they mentioned tanks many times.....I'll be getting the other book, from Germans' view, soon....I'm looking forward to checking it out
     

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