Daylight paratroop drop D-Day

Historically, the paratroops dropped on D-day at night well before the landings. Between navigation errors, pilot error, flak and, what-not they were scattered all over creation. This made it difficult for them to carry out their missions in any sort of orgainzed fashion for some time. It also created conditions were casualties were fairly high.

So, what if the paratroops instead drop after sunrise just before the landings commence? Now, the paratroops are going in in daytime. They could have been supported by tactical aircraft that were specifically tasked with annhiliating flak that tried to respond to the drops. Even spotter aircraft could have been up directing naval gunfire onto flak positions in this case.
There was no German aerial opposition so that is irrelevant. The gliders and paratroops could have been accurately dropped on their landing zones in daylight. The Germans would no be in a position of having to respond to the paratroops or the landings. A lot of casualities might have been avoided in the drops and the drops themselves likely would have been far more effective.

 

I think we discussed a version of this last year, except, the postulation then was something to the effect of : "Night Amphibious Landings on D-Day".

Anyway, the Airbone phase of the invasion took place when it did for several reasons all of which were in support of the Amphibious Pahse:
1. Disrupt German Forces
2. Secure Key Points inland
3. Prevent Reinforcement of the Beach Defenses
4. Secure Routes Inland.

Had the Airbone portion of the operation taken place during daylight none of the objectives would have been met prior to the Amphibious phase. Not to mention the fact that many more aircraft would have been shot down and the Lufwaffe would have had a plethora of ground targets.

Would Market Garden have been more successful if it had taken place at night?

 

Market Garden wouldnt have been successful if it had taken place on Mars with the plan it was evolved from..But thats a different thread.

 

A daylight drop would allow the airborne units to land in better shape. However, doing so would telegraph the Allied punches. The German generals can read a map, too. Surprise for the Allies would have been lost and allow the Germans to react better than they did historically. The confusion that hindered the historical German moves would have been minimized.
Going to the other side of the coin, a daylight airborne drop would mean the guarantee of good weather conditions, allowing the airborne to call upon superior air power.

 

On item 1 I'd say the drops had little or no effect on German forces at anything other than the most tactical level. That is, there were no large unit movements in the first 24 hours within the immediate landing area. This is mainly because none of the larger reinforcing divisions were in the immediate area. So, German defenses were disrupted only to the extent that local units had to fight uncoordinated battles against the paratroops and then the landings themselves.

For item 2, this would still have been accomplished and probably better in most cases by daylight drops. Sticks of paratroops landing in the right place togeather with their equipment would have greatly increased their effectiveness and reduced losses from the jump itself. A jump that looked more like the 82nd and 101st landing in Market-Garden would have enhanced this mission. After all, the troops would still face exactly the same German units they did originally unreinforced in virtually all cases. Even if these German forces were alert to the landings the paratroops have the offsetting advantage of better orgainzation and equipment to counter that.

Preventing reinforcement of the beach would have occured in a daylight drop. The German reaction is far too slow in terms of shoving reinforcements into the area to make a difference here. The daylight drop occuring as the landings occur still gives the paras plenty of time to accomplish this mission. In fact, again, better orgainzation and less loss of equipment would enhance this.

Securing routes inland would have been enhanced in daylight. As it was historically, many of the routes inland were not secured until well into D-Day itself after sunrise. So, by dropping a few hours later not much difference in outcome would occur.

Why would none of the objectives needing to be taken have fallen if the drop occurs concurrent with the first wave of landings? Both are occuring in daylight. The landing forces will take hours to get off the beaches and start moving inland. In most cases the paratroops having landed in the right place and togeather will be able to accomplish their missions in a much more timely fashion. They would still have hours to do so after landing.

The Luftwaffe in terms of fighter aircraft is non-existant. This is not a threat to the air trains. Flak is the only thing the Luftwaffe can offer. This could have been greatly reduced by including a heavy escort of ground attack aircraft escorting the transport planes. Any flak battery that opens up on the aircraft gets strafed, bombed and, rocketed for its trouble. Added bonus here: Destroyed or neutralized flak batteries will not be able to assist ground troops later in halting the Allied movement off the beach. Luftwaffe 88 batteries represent one of the major sources of both artillery fire and antitank guns in Normandy. These being eliminated is in itself a major plus in the days to come.

Very probably not. In fact, night landings would have almost certainly increased the Allies casualties among the paratroop divisions greatly.

 

I am not going to argue with you; but, I will refer you to a timeline:

D-Day - Normandy 1944 : Timeline

The Airborne phase was to secure beach exits off Utah.

If the Airborne phase began at or near the time of the landings they would not have had time to secure their objectives.

this is a synopsis of the Airborne OP order:
http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_index.php

 

When the troops dropped the night before, German reaction was scattered and almost haphazard. If they had dropped in daylight in conjunction with the beach landings, they would have been dropping into a fully alerted German response.

Probably wouldn't have been a Market Garden with that many paratroop loses.

Remember, the Germans can now see better and coordinate better in the daylight as well.

 

The failure of market garden was for many reasons:
1. dropping in full day light
2. lack of recon they failed to realize and also servilely underestimated the German fighting strength and a entire British corp was trying move through a narrow road was was easily picked of by the Germans,
Supply lines jammed heavy Resistance and the Germans easly attacked thier flanks and the germans inflicted sever casulties at Vallsenward or however you spell it.
Germans putt up server Resistance at all bridge sites including nijieme O and one ONE Keyword ONE British airborne divion was not armed or prepared to fight a German SS panzer divion OR was a battle group?

 

One of the more important things to come out of the night-time airborne landing was confusion for the Germans. The very fact that the paratroopers dropped all over Normandy was actually a good thing in hindsight. This, coupled with false intelligence and "dummy" paratroops literally paralyzed the German lines. Within hours of the landing:

• Half the 12th Hitlerjugend division was sent inland to deal with an "airborne force" which turned out to by dummy paratroopers
• "Enigma intercepts from the area of Titanic I, revealed that the German commander was reporting a major landing up the coast from Le Havre (well to the north of the landing beaches) and that he had been cut off by them" (from Wikipedia) Needless to say, this was completely false.
• Wilhelm Falley, commander of the 91st division was killed - thus paralyzing its command structure and effecting its fighting capability.

Yes, while a daytime landing would have meant paratroopers were better organized and oriented, but it would also mean the Germans knew exactly where they were. Thus the element or surprise would be lost. When looking at Market-Garden, the Germans were able to figure out where the paratroopers were (albeit they dropped in groups rather than being spread out) relatively fast, and were able to quickly counterattack. I would argue that when looking at the area as a whole, the German Normandy units were stronger than those in Holland. With this in mind, I would further argue that had the drop occured in daylight, airborne casualties (not to mention the carrier planes) would have been significantly higher, and they would have had more difficulty taking their objectives.

So, taking it all into account, I would say that had the landings occurred in daylight, casualties would have been heavier, it would have been more difficult to take objectives, and the invasion forces on the beaches probably would have taken more casualties seeing as how there would be less confusion behind the lines - meaning less Germans units would be tied down dealing with false threats, thus allowing them to group for a counterattack.

 

I only put up Market Garden because it juxtaposed nicely.
Market Garden = Daylight = Fail
Over Lord = Night Time = Success

Although the Airborne phase of Overlord is portrayed as a complete cluster f*** they did acheive their objectives and facilitate the swift movement off of Utah beach.

 

My thoughts as well, I imagine even Hitler could have been convinced by the day drop. The thoughts of causalities are quite disturbing if all of the German armour is freed up many days ahead of time.

Even if the Allies still land everything on their timetable I still see the day drop as a success but a strategic failure, simply scale the German defenses in the Bocage and Caen but with allot more of everything. Not saying that the Germans were guaranteed a win but things like manpower issues for the US and UK might have shown up and caused problems far sooner.

 

The Orne bridge attacks were pin point glider assaults, could they have been done during daylight and succeed? Could you have some drop at night and some daylight and not loose the element of surprize?

 

I doubt the Orne assaults could have succeeded during daylight. The key factor was the element of surprise (especially with slow-flying gliders), and during daylight they would have been clearly visible to the Germans - thus meaning they would have had time to prepare. Keep in mind that the gliders were landing right next to heavily defended military installations; not in a secluded forest or field away from observers. Unless they had heavy air support to keep the Germans occupied while the gliders touched down, I doubt it would have succeeded.

As for dropping some at night and some at day: this could have worked had the supplementary daylight force been assigned to act as re-enforcements. But, the night drop likely would have had to completely secure all the drop zones (they were spread out a lot, and somewhat disoriented), as the re-enforcements would have made easy targets for the defenders as they were coming in. I don't think the element of surprise would have necessarily been lost, as the Germans may have figured the drop was only to occur in one wave, and since there was great confusion (they thought the airborne force was much larger than it actually was). But, securing the DZs would have required a lot of the night troops, meaning they would have had less to secure the objectives - the main point for the drop. Once the daylight force was landed, they would then have to branch out to take the objectives from there, but by that time the Germans would have already known where the DZs were (likely would have had them boxed in) and already be moving towards the beaches.

So, I think both are still plausible, but would likely have both resulted in significantly higher casualties and had less of an impact on the overall invasion operation.

 

I was not as clear as I wished. I was thinking of night drops/glider assaults for those that absolutely needed darkness to succeed and day drops for the main assaults.

 

Even if their was airdrops in the day whats the point? They would only have a few hours or so to secure their objectives considering how long it took to secure to beaches and then they have to help the airdrop troops to secure their objectives delaying the whole Normandy breakout.

 

Because, at least in the US case, the historical outcome was most of the objectives given to the paratroops were not achieved. The dispersion of the drops was so bad and the paratroops so intermixed that it prevented both airborne divisions from achieving many of their objectives.
Yes, they did manage to open most of the beach exits. But, they failed to secure either flank, particularly the northern one around Carentan.
The 101st, for example, suffered 1240 casualties in its first day of operations and only managed to have about 2,500 out of almost 7,000 men assembled for operations. Some of the 101st's sticks (and the 82nd's) were dropped as much as 25 or more miles from their assigned location!
The German response was tepid at best. It wasn't until D+1 that any substancial reinforcement appeared in the Utah Beach area. That was the 6th FJ Regiment which arrived on that evening and went into blocking defense positions around St. Come-du-Mont and two regiments of the 91st Infantry Division that took up defense positions along the Merderet River on the Cherbourg pennisula.
Existing German strongpoints (eg., those in place prior to the landings) proved difficult for the paratroops to overcome given their weak numbers and disorganization. It was largely through hard fighting and luck that they took the town of St. Mere Eglise at all. They also were unable to dislodge a large German concentration near the town leaving the area largely contested.
So, the counter attack expected from the Germans likely would not occur regardless of whether the drops are at night or day whether they are scattered or not. The Germans simply don't have the mobile troops to perform the mission. It is still going to take them the better part of a day to mount any really sizable reinforcement of the Utah beachhead defenses. By then it will be too late.
So, what you get with a day drop is a trade off. Less surprise and confusion on the German side but no massive response simply because they don't have the troops to do it against better coordinated landings and unit cohesion on the ground by the paratroops. I think the later is worth more than the former.

 

TA, you have a point. It's definitely a trade off. However, I lean to the idea that a night drop is better than a day drop. As mentioned in several posts in this thread, the airborne was dropped at night to achieve surprise. In an assault of this scale, surprise is necessary. You are right that the Germans did not have enough mobile forces in the immediate area to deal with the shock of a daylight drop but again, that's for the short term. The Allies have just landed and still to consolidate their positions. It's a race between the Germans and Allies to get as many of their forces to Normandy. Delaying the German reaction would, for me, be the best way to go.

 

For a start, we'd have to determine exactly what daylight means. Daybreak was at 0558, but that doesn't mean someone flips a switch from dark to light. What we're looking for, and I don't claim any expertise about it, is sufficient light for aircraft to maintain formation and identify landmarks on the ground, in the prevailing weather conditions, and they'd need to do this for some time and distance prior to the LZs.

Pathfinders and special units like the Pegasus Bridge assault force would land earlier; I would expect the time difference ahead of the main force to be the same as historically.

Several people have mentioned the importance of surprise, but that's an argument in favor of the later, daylight drop. Surprise was lost and the German reaction began with large-scale paratroop landings, well before the seaborne landing forces arrived. We see for example:

0215 hrs : Every german battalions, batteries and regimental headquarters are placed of full alert.

Rundstedt is recorded ordering two panzer divisions to the invasion coast at 0430, two hours before the first landing craft hit the beach and three hours ahead of the British landings where 12th SS (and 21st Panzer) were best positioned to intervene. It was only the dysfunctional German command structure that held them up.

The point at which surprise would irretrievably be lost was when someone like that German officer in The Longest Day spotted the Allied invasion forces moving into position. The main effect of paratroop landings X hours before that was to give the Germans X hours head start. Some time after the Germans started reacting, they would reach blocking positions set up by the airborne, at which point the airborne would be significantly aiding the seaborne assault - but the later that whole process starts, the better.

 

Morning nautical twilight is the technical term. This is the time between when it starts getting light and night transitions to day before the sun actually comes up. This varies with the latitude and time of year some but is about 30 to 45 minutes before the sun actually rises. During much of that time you can make out alot of your surroundings. Additionally, this time increases with altitude so for aircraft they could be flying in twilight even though it is still dark to a ground observer.

This would mean that the transports could be approaching the French coast as early as about 0500 to 0520 and be flying in enough light to maintain formation and begin making out landmarks on the ground. The jump could have been made at between 0530 and 0600 easily in enough daylight for the troops and planes to see visually what they are doing.

 

Have we forgotten about the overcast and bad weather conditions? They're not going to jump through cloud, so the transports come down to light-AA range. Also, they are silhouetted nicely against the lightening gray sky.

Slaughter.