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Death Penalty

Discussion in 'The Members Lounge' started by AL AMIN, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. Canadian_Super_Patriot

    Canadian_Super_Patriot recruit

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    Grieg you seem kinda fanatical about capital punishment. Despite the fact that innocent people may be killed.
     
  2. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    csp wrote:

    I debate issues as they arise. If nobody was refuting me I wouldn't be responding. You on the other hand seem a bit emotional on the subject of the dp ;) To continually bemoan the small ( acceptable) risk that an innocent will be executed without bringing anything new to the debate could be described as fanatical perhaps? :D
     
  3. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    That was actually when I was trying to conclude a persistent side-issue in the posts above.

    The "full of compassion" bit is derived from the fact that, when we bring up the possibility that a convicted person may be innocent, you counter this by pointing out that endless appeals etc may also put guilty criminals back on the streets. You back this up by claiming that apparently those who advocate the endless appeals have no compassion for the "innocent victims". This is a moral argument.
     
  4. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    Acceptable to who? Not the poor sod who is wrongly hanged or given a lethal injection I would imagine. It is acceptable to you perhaps not to me. Life imprisonment in an environment where inmates have to work and can be released if their convictions are over-turned is much more preferable to me than executing wrongly convicted individuals.

    This is quite simply the crux of the issue to me, it centres largely around what you deem acceptable, but to me it is not acceptable to risk executing innocent individuals for the sake of an arguable deterent. Pierrepoint, Britain's last hangman has said that he did not think a single execution he carried out acted as a deterent.
     
  5. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    Well,no one would want to be the executioner if they could help me.I didn't think the firng squads prior to a court martial feels any comfort in their grim detail.In such an environment and th number of people they killed as ahangman,i am sure none would find it an effecive deterrent which may not be true at all.Man's nature are inherently evil i think.

    The Justice system is flawed,but justive still needs to be served.Statistics has even shown that some convicts return to their old ways....well if you cannot accept that an innocent might be killed in the course of ou flawed judicial system,then i am equally unprepared to take the risk that one,after bing released may kill more agiain(it's a slight chance but well,sticking to yur argument simon,i can't accept tat chance) thaT affects innocent lives which may not be innocent.But the thing is,the law had been broken by then.
     
  6. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    Kaiser, Pierrepoint wanted to be a hangman. I've seen it argued convincingly that he was in effect a legal serial killer. Never mind that I have also read occasionally when actual serial killers have been caught locals to the victims have volunteered to be members of the firing squad.

    If the justive system accepts that they may be killing a number of innocents for every guilty party then that IMO makes them no better than the likes of the IRA who arguably carry out more effective law enforcement (Kneecapping burglars is a good deterent), then they are no more morally justified than those paramilitaries as far as I'm concerned.
     
  7. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    Ah,my apologies.But then again,he has not committed any crime did he?
    It is understandable that they want to be part of the firin squads isn't it? After all,they might not understand fully what is grace.


    If the Justice sytem accepts releasing killers back into the society where they may kill again,they are just as guilty isn't it?Well effective law enforcement is what we want isn't it?

    The thing is what is our idea of righteousness and justice?IS justice subject to a moral code that allows us to be emotional and say we cannot play God in my honest opinion?And yet we re not because if one consults the bible(one of the earliest form of law),then justice isn't only for punishment but rather repentence.However,justice must be carried out also which means that the sentence must fit the crime. Of course then it would not be fair to innocents,but we are not omniscient.We could give them real life-sentences but would they repent?Of course if i had my way,i would ensure a person truly repent before giving appropriate punishmns,but i do not wield that power and neither do anybody.Hence we can only fall back to the death sentence considering the pros and cons
     
  8. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    simon wrote:

    To the majority of people in the US of course. That is really what we are talking about here. Capital Punishment in the US. Europe is irrelevant to this issue since they have abolished the dp. Of course everybody is entitled to their opinion even if it makes zero difference and is a moot point but I'm speaking from the perspective of the US since this issue is alive and relevant here.







    A numberof innocents for each guilty party now is it?
    Lol..We have gone from zero proof of any innocents (in the US at least where the point isn't moot) to multiple innocents for each murderer?

    Emotional handwringing like this will never shed any light on the issue. It just clouds minds (some of which are doubtless partly cloudy already) :D
     
  9. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    Arghhh, curse my typing when tired...! :lol: :oops:
     
  10. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Do you think the death penalty in the US can only be judged by cases of death sentences in the US, considering that we aren't talking about just your country but about the death penalty in general? The example of the Birmingham Six points out an essential risk of the DP, that applies to the US as it does anywhere else.
     
  11. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    But such risks,as you point out is universal and unfortunately,unavoidable isn't it? There is a risk in every endeavour that Man takes,but we do it anyway. So why should a risk stop us from doing it because i get the feeling that cases like birmingham 6 and such aren't everyday occurences,which if so,then should the DP be stopped
     
  12. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Because, as is the entire point of this debate, there is an alternative that doesnt carry as great a risk. Locking someone up for life is a revokable verdict, death is not.
     
  13. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    As i have said,i think repentence to be an important element in the administering of justice. There is also a great risk whether you like it or not that even with a REAL life-sentence,the people might not be feeling guilty at all.Then what si the point of justice?What is the point of punishing when one simply doesn't feel guilty?I don't see any point in it.A DP on the other hand,whether the fellow feels guilty or not,is punished and rendered incapable(for those who don't believe in the after-life) of feeling un-guilty.
     
  14. AL AMIN

    AL AMIN New Member

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    exactly!!!!
    that how i roll
     
  15. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    roel wrote:

    You cannot look at the dp in a vacuum. What happened in Britain has no bearing on the dp in the US. Britain does not have our Constitution nor our judicial system. The dp in China or the former Soviet Union where political prisoners are executed and where the rule of law as we know it in the US doesn't exist cannot be compared. Apples and oranges.
     
  16. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    Say Grieg,i think what Roel is trying to say is that he wants to examine DP as a subject by itself drawing examples from every country.But what i do feel Roel is trying to say is that he wants our views on the DP on a much more personal level.

    But then again Grieg,just to be fair,don't you agree that the US system where the DP is concerned may have sentenced some innocent people to die?I think what our opposition is suggesting is that they,like the old Chinese saying,"would rather let go than kill the wrong target" while we are of the view that,like yet another Chinese saying,"Rather kill the wrong target than let anyone off."
     
  17. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    For China and the SU this holds water, but for Britain it does not. Or are you suggesting the American justice system is superior to the British one, though both share the same background?

    Kaiser: your view on the death penalty stands or falls with the existence of an afterlife. Wouldn't you rather be sure that criminals will repent in life, by sentencing them to lifelong imprisonment? It is much more likely that they will feel guilty when given time to contemplate (they'll have nothing else to do anyway!), than when you just kill them right away.
     
  18. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    It is my personal belief that Hell is a real plaxce and so does Heaven.

    It is always good that one repents,but then the justice must be served. IF a man doesn't repent,what good does it does though there exist a higher chance that he will?But can we guarantee it?

    However,for all who doesn't hold my belief, then i do concede that perhaps it would be better if they repent in life.And in that case,i do accept the possibility of a life sentence with the strictest restriction.

    Actually,my stand is either a life sentence or a death sentence.but the DP must not be taken out completely.The Singapore system judges on a case by case and sometimes give the life and sometimes the death.I would assume the British judicial system is the same?
    But no,if the Dp is lifted it will be the triumph of a new era of crimes because people will have none to fear from death.Similarly, if \the DP is to be lifted,then society's values must be drastically changed. People must be educated and morals instilled in them,if not,the prisons will just overcrowd and taxes will be higher than it is and then,to support a murderer in prison,a family will have less to spend.It does not make sense to overcrowd prisons(tho only a small percentage are murderers) at the expense of others.Especially now that US prisons and some European prisons are overcrowding
     
  19. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    No, but then this is about the Death Penalty as a whole, not just in the US and bringing up the point that had Britain still had the Death Penalty at that time there is little doubt that these men would have been executed after their wrongful convictions is entirely relevant to the debate.

    Britain still has a Constitution, not the US one, but I don't entirely see the relevance of that comment, and Britain has Trial by Jury where guilt must be proven, so again, I'm not entirely sure I see the relevance.
     
  20. Kaiser phpbb3

    Kaiser phpbb3 New Member

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    But then again Simon,you are bringing up one case to justify the failings of the DP? Just for debate's sake,you still have to bring up statistics.Are there almost a case of wrongful conviction every yeasr in britain?If it is,then the judicial process obviously needs some cleaning up(no offense but it makes sense to me) If it's like this one case is the failing of the DP,then i am sure there are cases where people who committed other crimes are wrongfully convicted as well,then should we,theoreticaly at least,change the sentence? But if the Birmingham six is just a case that comes up like once in a long while,then it is,a rather unfortunate incident and you can't really blame anyone. I do care about those 6 but it is unavoidable.The Dp however un-humane it is,still has a important part to play.
     

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