Debunking Polish stereotypes: the cavalry charge against German tanks

Another stereotype that concerns me greatly is the assistance of ordinary non-Jewish Poles in ridding their conquered nation of Jewish people. MANY poles actively sought to ape their German masters, confiscating Jewish property, turning in Jews on the run. During the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, non-Jewish help from outside the Ghetto was not very much in evidence. Poles took many of these Warsaw Jews to the cleaners, selling them food and other items at fantastically inflated prices. The city of Warsaw's "Aryan districts" sat on their hands both before and after the Uprising. They did not know it would be their turn a year later. Postwar, Jewish property was in many cases not returned, nor were Polish people capable of facing their own duplicity in the Holocaust. Returning displaced Jews were sometimes LYNCHED.

Many "Aryan" Poles behaved disgracefully.

The stereotype to be debunked is that "most Poles fought like Lions." This may have been true for the Polish servicemen who escaped to serve in other military organizations, but it most certainly was not true of the greater majority of Poles left behind, remembering that comparitively few Plish servicemen made it out of the country.

 

As to the nature of Polish resistence in 1939, I don't think they got a chance, really, to show what they could do. The German invasion caught the greater majority of the Polish regular and reserve formations still mobilizing and moving into position. Without a defence in depth doctrine, or much of mechanized equipment to provide a little speed and dash, the forward deployment of most of Polish resources guaranteed a quick end as their formations were split apart and isolated from one another. AND, the real 'kick in the guts' was the completely unexpected Soviet invasion, which gave the Poles no chance at all of conducting themselves in a credible manner.

Poland has been broken up no less than four times in it's history. Their animosity towards their Russian nieghbours has resulted in a long line of conflicts with them. But one thing has always remained the same. Since their days of serving Napolean, Polish soldiers have excelled themselves. The Greatest Captain of history fell over himself praising them, and they were there in 1812 as well.

Poland would have been far better off not antagonising their nearest neighbours. But, Russian revenge for the Russo-Polish War of the 1920's probably doomed their cause from that point on. Their diplomats should have taken this onboard; instead we had a firebrand Polish military whose ideas Polish nationalism and pride lead them to side with Britain and France, who did nothing for them.

 

@ Volga Boatman.

I do agree with a lot of what you said. But regarding your comments about ordinary Poles. It was true that many Poles took advantage of the Jewish situation, but I think that there is not a country which helped the Jewish people as much as Poland, as a whole. As individuales, there were many bad Poles, but please take a look at Russia. The government had policies which murdered millions. The Polish resistance would have been MUCH more effective if it wasn't for the Soviets, who didn't just murder thousands of Poles, but also watched Warsaw Uprsing without any help (all while thousands of Polish soilders in the Red Army wanted to assist), but after they finally did get off their butts, arrested thousands of resistance fighters and many were killed on the spot. Polish resistence did more with less then any other nation. So why would you even go there.
"Poland would have been far better off not antagonising their nearest neighbours." Where do you get this piece of information. I guess being of Russian decent I could see why. You must be so brain washed by the Soviet system to post a statement like that. I don't even know where to begin. Please as a Pole please don't rain in on our parade. Because thanks to Stalin we were not part of the Victory Parade in England. Nor did we get the RIGHTLY deserved credit for our contributions to the war. Only recently (and MUCH too late) are we getting more and more recognition. And here is the GREATEST quiet truth about WW2. Mother Russia is just as responsible for WW2 as Germany. When you said that Poles took the Jews to the cleaners and a year later they themselfes suffered, well this sounds like what happaned to Russia. So as a Pole I would appreciate that Russians do not "rain in on our parada". The Soviets have done so much damage to Poland that it will take generations and generations of good relations to forget.

 

Tom...

First of all, a big welcome to The Forum, and the Rogues therof. Good to have you aboard.

My real name is Christopher, and I'm of Greek-Danish decent, born in London, with a Euro passport. I have an Australian mother who brought me here when I was a wee lad.

Nothing annoys me more than Russian revisionism of their involvement in WW2. We encounter one Russian poster after another trying to whitewash Soviet participation, and it gets on my goat that they point to their war record and classify themselves as 'good guys' simply because they ended the war on the winning side. It has been my objective here to highlight Russian revisionism on this forum wherever I encounter it. I do admire the ordinary Russian soldier, however, misused and abused that he was. It was on the backs of such people that the fascist beast was sent running, tail between it's legs and howling for mercy.

No country suffered more than Poland. No people had more to complain about than Poland. But, this does not excuse the fact that Poland was quite willing to diplomatically shoot itself in the foot after the Russo-Polish War. The narrow Russian victory must have engendered a certain confidence that another such conflict with the Old Enemy would result in a better outcome. However, like so many military thinkers in Europe between the wars, their doctrinalism did not match the speed of tactical and technological advancement.

I have often wondered exactly why Polish diplomats made only a feeble effort to secure a working relationship with at least Germany. I realise they did not trust the National Socialists as far as they could kick them, but diplomacy is the art of speaking as you otherwise feel. Alliances with Britain and France were always going to be difficult, due to Poland's isolation from help. And that Russo-Polish War was such a blot on potential relations with the Soviets that it ruled out any diplomatic feelers by Poland toward their Soviet neighbours. It seems obvious now, but nothing was done to turn Germany from an acknowledged enemy into a friend. I think it's one of the great 'what ifs' of WW2..."What if Poland had allowed Germany to mass on the Soviet borders of their nation, or better still, joined the Germans in a 1939 invasion of the Soviet Union?"

Call me naive, but Russian co-operation was impossible, so an alliance with Germany was really the only option. Poland chose the worst of the three scenarios when she petitioned the Franco-British for help. Even Hitler understood that the West would have been capable of doing precisely nothing, as evidenced by German troop deployments on the eve of the German invasion.

Anyhow, I would very much like to hear from other Poles such as yourself as to your views of Poland and the conflicts she has been involved in. Don't doubt my admiration for a second. Any serious student of WW2 cannot but admire Polish tenacity, sacrifice, and sheer GUTS with which this incredible and wonderfully cultured people conducted their affairs. Such a pity that rotten apples had to spoil this during the Occupation. Furthermore, we never have gotten a credible explaination from the Russians as to exactly why their Ukrainian Front "ran out of steam", conveniantly just before Warsaw, and why they sat on their hands while the SS gleefully crushed the life out of the London Poles.

 

To this could be added the fact that the Russians never returned oriental Poland after 1945. It was granted to Poland after the Versailles Treaty in 1919 and illegaly confiscated by Stalin in 1939 . Did the Russian 1945 victory make this legitimate (and give Poland German territories to make the 1939-41 ehtnic cleansing in the Brest and Lemberg/Lvow regions acceptable?

 

No skip it did not. But many have learned from it in todays recent histories.

 

Christopher,

I appologize for assuming that you may have been of Russian descent, but your screen name hinted that. Ouh, ya it is a cool screen name. As you can see I do have a "short temper' side when it comes to Soviet topics. And as I said I do agree with most of what you said. I guess it was the "Poland would have been far better off not antagonising their nearest neighbours" statement, that rubbed me the wrong way. And the statement is true to a small degree. I assume you were talking about the fact that Poland attacked Russia first. But it was Lenin who kept threating Poland. So between Lenin in the 1918's and Hitler in 1938/1939 (and the propaganda about how Poles are murdering Germans) well as you can see it was Germany and Russia who were the major anntogonists. Oh, by the way, did you see the trailers to a new Polish made 3D movie about the Soveit-Polish war. Wish it was available in 3D in the US, but either way I can't wait to see it on regular DVD.

 

looking forward to any movie that highlights Poland and Polish soldiers. It's about time.

 

Poland did not ask Britain for help.

Chamberlain was so personally affronted by the German take-over of the rump of Czechoslovakia that he approached Beck and asked if the Poles would consent to an Alliance with Great Britain.

This is off Thread but nevertheless I am interested in the Politics of this period and I think that if Hitler had restricted himself to the Sudetenland, there is a good chance that Britain would not have made this offer.

And all the way through, France, as in Czechoslovakia crisis, followed Britain's lead - she was definitely not going to fight against Germany on her own without British assistance and who can blame her.

So there was a good chance that Poland would have been on her own (well she was anyway in practical terms) but would Britain have declared War?

It is a good question and even after the Germans attacked Poland, France was reluctant and took a bit of prodding to actually declare War.

Let us not forget that whilst the Polish people and her soldiers and airmen were magnificent, the Polish regimes in the inter-war period were not "nice" - re-actionary, mistreating Jewish and other minorities and expansionist eg Russian compaign and Tetzen grab from Czechoslovakia. All of which makes it bit difficult for a leader in a democracy (Britain and France) to persuade his people to "mourrir pour Danzig".

 

Spot on Scipio...Who here is ready to defend Polands acts against Jewish folk before ww2? Although as Scipiio states Poles were like terriers when stirred, we tend to forget or dont wish to look at Poland politically in the years directly proceeding ww2.

 

At the risk of sounding childish, was Poland any different when it came to Jews, then any other nation in Europe? I guess England might have been. But Poland being surrounded by Fascist Germany, and Russian Bolshevisim, well through osomsis some bad apples were going to sprout. I guess I was always proud of the Polish Constituation written in 1791 which gave so many freedoms, and then the Eastern and Western powers felt threaten and Poland dissappeared. I feel that Poland from early on was a beacon for religous tolerance and the influance of foreign powers destroyed it.
"The history of the Jews in Poland dates back over a millennium.[SUP][4][/SUP] For centuries, Poland was home to the largest and most significant Jewish community in the world. Poland was the centre of Jewish culture thanks to a long period of statutory religious tolerance and social autonomy. This ended with the Partitions of Poland and persecution especially by the Russian authorities."
"From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in 1025 through to the early years of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, Poland was the most tolerant country in Europe.[SUP][5][/SUP] Known as paradisus Iudaeorum (Latin for Jewish paradise) it became a unique shelter for persecuted and expelled European Jewish communities and a home to the world's largest Jewish community. According to some sources, about three-quarters of all Jews lived in Poland by the middle of the 16th century.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP] With the weakening of the Commonwealth and growing religious strife (due to the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Counter-Reformation), Poland’s traditional tolerance[SUP][9][/SUP] began to wane from the 17th century onward.[SUP][10][/SUP] After the partitions of Poland in 1795 and the destruction of Poland as a sovereign state, Polish Jews were subject to the laws of the partitioning powers, primarily the increasingly anti-Semitic Russian Empire"
Now I will not defend all the progroms in Poland as they are indefensible. But please keep in mind
"Grouped by nationality, Poles represent the biggest number of people who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.[SUP][19][20][/SUP][SUP]"
[/SUP] Sorry for going of topic.

By the way check out the trailer for Battle of Warsaw Battle of Warsaw 3D (2011)/ Bitwa Warszawska 1920 3D - Movie Trailer no.2 [HD] 1080p - YouTube

 

Hey um, Volga Boatman, you kind of made me question your intimacy with central/west European common politics for the last 500yrs with the whole Poland should've allied with Germany against the common enemy Russia/soviets thing. The cultural problem between Poles and eastern slavs was Catholicism versus Orthodoxy. The Prussians and northwest Germany is strictly Protestant, which is even worse.
Bavarians and Poles maybe yes, they are alike. The whole working class hero thing that Hitler liked to play, that's something a Pole will like. But that's like having one leader you like in a nation full of people you hate, and that leader you like hates you too.
That's about as far as a Polish-German alliance would go. Look at Danzig, but most importantly not Danzig itself but the fact it characterises the entire Polish Corridor. A bunch of strictly Protestant and largely aristocratic Prussians got legally handed over to Catholic Polish rulership, you might as well have just shoved them all in a room together and tossed dynamite in.

Britain, France and Italy, even Czechoslovakia had a lot of contempt for a lot of other nations, Poland was like their gimpy child which they used to slap German monarchism in the face with. And these are mainstream public opinions of the time, my family remembered it as they told me.

Also worth mentioning is the SS formations which finally put down the Warsaw Uprising in force (the point when they took the gloves off), were convict battalions. Some of their field commanders had been court martialled by Army for "battlefield excesses" on the Eastern Front, the SS simply gave them amnesty and rotated them into occupational forces for "special operations" roughly along the lines of the whole einsatzgruppen (ideological warfare) strategy.

And that some military historians cite a similar problem with Polish mobilisation to the Italians, their biggest encumberance was with the "cliqué of colonels at the top" as Walter Boyne puts it, being utterly derelict in their duties by failing to take the military threat seriously. According to Walter Boyne, several Polish field commanders quoted in international newsmedia said if war began with Germany they would storm Berlin within weeks.

 

I can. They had something like 4 to 1 superiority in forces along the German border from late 39 through the phoney war, there was only once or twice during that time, for very limited periods the Wehrmacht could hope to fight them effectively. At the height of the phoney war some journalists were among the French lines, whilst the Wehrmacht was starting to run rampant across Europe and France was at war along with Britain, the journalist saw German army troops playing soccer within a couple of hundred yards of the French positions. He asked an infantryman why he wasn't shooting at the Germans and the Frenchman was shocked, he said, "Why should I shoot them, they haven't done anything to me, they're fine."

One of those annoying French generals at the time said something along the lines of, the French people are tired of war, they don't want to go to war. That's a general we're talking about who actually thinks people go to war because they want to.

 

I always believed that if France attacked as soons as Poland was invaded, then the war would have been completely different.

I also find it interesting that many of the French officers wouldn't listen to the Polish officers regarding the new air and land tactics employed be the Germans. Many thought the Poles simply couldn't fight the Germans. Well, well. I think Poland did much better then France.

 

I understand and concede in a lot of topics at the forum, opinionation is inherent and I am no different, and certainly no more authority than anyone with my opinions, but I can't help feeling as though the French generals were more interested in political careers than they were the well being of the nation or continent.

 

Ok I have to be fair. I also do recall a few Polish Generals saying how if war starts, they expect to be in Berlin in a few weeks. Or something to that extent.

 

Some of their field commanders had been court martialled by Army for "battlefield excesses"

Who were they vanir? Any info?

 

The 4 to 1 superiority is a post war invention .

 

The point is :the French were attacking after Poland was invaded (the Saar offensive).
And,why was Poland doing better than France ?

 

1) Why should French generals be interested in the well being of the continent?
2)A lot of generals in a lot of countries were interested in political careers .For the US :Wood,Mac Arthur,Lemay,Haig,Eisenhower,.....