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Design issue with HMS Dreadnought.

Discussion in 'Military History' started by OpanaPointer, Apr 6, 2010.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Relevant:

    HMS Invincible, Battle of the Falklands, 1914. Report mentioned in Castles of Steel state that the men in P turret were rattled and dazed by Q turret firing over them. If the men in a turret suffered that, we can imagine what people on an open bridge would sustain.
     
  2. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    Don't expect many people to be on an open bridge once the big guns start firing, that's what putting in an armoured conning tower was all about.

    Anyone knows what the maximum elevation of the guns was? I would be very surprised at anything greater than 25 degrees. Interestingly some picures show the QF guns on A turret have some sort of shield behind them, The only reason I can immagine for it was to protect the crews from the blast of the side turrets so some idea of firing them straight forward or close to it was part of the design. Of course if a turret's armour didn't protect the crew one wonders at the usefulness of a thin blast shield.

    It would be intersing to collect data about self inflicted damage on battleships by gun blast or recoil, I remember reading about some episodes and it would be interesting to know if was that rare an rare occurrence under battle conditions.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yeah, that's my point, the bridge is uninhabitable during firing straight ahead. The armored redoubt was as much to protect the crew against their own guns as anything else.

    Re the shields on the QF guns. 40mm mounts on USN ships in WWII had splinter shields, those might be for the same purpose?
     
  4. freebird

    freebird Member

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    There was more to it than that, it was (probably correctly) assumed by the admiralty that the Nelson class would always operate as part of a fleet, with other supporting BB's, and that the enemy would be trying to escape from superior British forces. (Most other foreign capital ships were slower than 23 knots)

    So the Nelson in pursuit of an enemy BB could fire all 3 turrets by steering 15 or 20 degrees off target.
     
  5. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    This picture from 1914 clearly shows the shields, they seem to have disappeared by 1916. It also shows of what (very little) was in front of the wing turrets.

    View attachment 12327

    AFAIK the shields on the US guns were mosly to prptect the crews from rifle caliber fire from attacking aircraft MGs. the only ship I know of that had encosed light AA guns to protect from blast was Yamato, and even in her case the additional 25mm added later were without the enclosures that probably affected both visibility and tracking speed.
     

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  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I recently got an email from a friend. He had everybody in his unit sign the "chicken shield" from his Hummer and then he smuggled it back to the world. :D
     
  7. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Mr Pointer I think You Mean The "Chicken Plates" :D

    I hate to ask how he got that big Plate back to the US :confused:

    God Bless USPS!

    I read in WWII some High ranking Officers Sent Sailboats+++++ Back Home :rolleyes::D
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Potaytoh, potahtoh.
    He's a colonel.
    "Kelly's Heroes"
     
  9. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    No he means "Chicken Shield".... "Chicken Plates" were meant to be worn and were first developed during WW1. They again came into vogue for waist gunners on allied bombers.

    "Chicken Shields" were comon on most field artilery pieces and in trench warfare as they were used to shield weapon crews from shrapnel and small arms fire.
    Navies used them as well to protect shipboard gun crews frm the same hazards.
     
  10. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Don't know about the 12" specifically, but the 15" on the Queen Elizabeth and later classes elevated to 20 degrees (increased to 30 in 1930s modernizations) so that's probably a good guess for British ships of the WWI era. I also recall that contemporary German guns only elevated to 16 degrees; on one occasion in the Baltic SMS Konig was embarrassed to find herself temporarily outranged by the old Russian pre-dreadnought Slava whose guns had been modified to elevate to 30 degrees.

    Shields on 40mm and similar guns were mainly for protection against strafing as TOS mentioned, IMO their value was as much psychological as anything else. As the air and especially kamikaze threats increased, we began putting light AA in places previously considered unsuitable due to the possibility of blast damage, in hopes that they would not have have to conduct simultaneous main battery and AA engagements.
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Anybody know of any cases where that happened? It would be "fun" to be on the top of an Iowa main turret when they were poppin' caps.
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Further reading in Castles of Steel. Massie reprints comments from officers at Dogger Bank who state that the Navigation party and the Flag party retired to the conning tower during action stations. So my comment above is incorrect to the extent that it applies to those parties. I don't know who, if anyone, remained on the exposed bridge during action stations.

    "The only thing new is the history you don't already know."
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The blast screen was added during her refit March 29 - June 10, 1911.

    It was removed, along with the guns, during her refit May 7 - June 7, 1915.
     

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