Entwicklung Series

Hello everybody!

I have a question about the german Entwicklung Panzer Series.

So if the war went longer for about 3 years and the germans had the materials to built these tanks.
Would these panzers be succesful in combat against the: Pershings, T44 and IS?

So I'm talking about the:
E-5
E-10
E-25
E-50
E-75
E-100

I especially want to know if the E100 would be succesful.
Because from what I read about this tank that this tank was the Maus but far more better.

So 2 questions:

If WW2 went further for 3/4 years and the Germans had the Materials to build the Entwicklung series, would the panzers be succesful against the USA and USSR?

And is the E100 indeed better then the Maus?

 

Probably not. I'm not speaking of a one on one, tank on tank basis, just that the tanks would have made little difference. The allies would still have had more. The Germans would still have been fuel starved. They still would lack air superiority. Lastly, Allied tanks would have continued to develop and improve, so there would'nt be a large technological gap.

 

Spending any time looking at the 'Paper Panzers' quickly leads to a 'so what?' response.
You don't win a losing war, crumbling left right and centre, by a few tweaks of machinery. End of.

 

I know that the germans wouldnt turn the tie with this tanks but would this be effective against the American Pershings (Maybe the Paton) and the IS?

 

It's not really clear what you are asking for. For instance Shermans were effective vs both Panthers and Tigers so it wouldn't be out of the question that the E series could be effective vs the next generation or two or allied tanks. Of course effectiveness has a lot to do with the crew as well as the hardware. On the other hand due to limited mobility one could question whether the E series would be effective in general. See similar discussions with regards to the H series of battleships.

 

Look

Germany invaded the USSR.
But the USSR defeated germany in the battle of kurk because of the superior tank tech that the russians had in the begin of the invasion.
So the germans built the Tiger 1 and the Panther.
Those panzers where verry effective against the KV1 and T34.
And the Panzers prove that they where better then the US tanks in the desert.

But later the Russians and England developed weapons that can destroy these Panzers (Panther and Tiger II).
The Firefly, IS and T34-85.

The germans where late and couldnt produce any panzers that could compete with these tanks.
And I think the Entwicklung series where the panzers that could actually compete with these tanks.

1.So I want to know if the Entwicklung series could actually compete with the Russians and American (English) tanks?

2. And was the E100 indeed better then the Pz Kpfw VIII (Maus)?

 

Your first sentence is correct. After that not so much.
Winning the battle of Kursk had little to do with "superior tank tech" on the part of the Russians in fact at that point the Germans arguably had the superior tank tech. Niether the Tiger 1 nor the the Panther were built because of Kursk. The T34 and Mk-IV along with the M4 were all essentially equal with each having some points of superiority over the other.

By the time the Tiger II went into production the numbers being produced wasn't really a factor in regards to the conclusion of the war.

Since the Maus was a slightly mobile pillbox it would have been hard to make a worse tank. Better? well I'll leave that to others.

 

The 'best' tank (Argh! 'Best'. I know...), is the one that can be realistically fielded, supported and fought in the conditions available. That's what was done, by all sides. They produced what they could.
There's not a great deal in the Paper Panzers that's especially revolutionary either, more evolutionary, pretty much as any other nation planned - bigger this, faster that, greater interchangeability. (Though they're often rather hard to talk about convincingly as the solid record is sketchy and much web mythos has been laid over it.)

If a 'what if' is to allow for one side to have progressed with it's planned designs, then the other side probably has to be handed the magic wand as well.
E50/75 or E100 on the field, so JS3, T54, Centurion, Conqueror, M47, M48 etc. also fully present. Result - broadly similar.
It's not as if the Paper jobs were on the mere cusp of reality - they were a way from completion, with things like the Schmallturms for IV & V being far more possible shifts than entire new vehicles. Not that they'd have made a great deal of difference either.

 

Hi LouisJ444.

The answers provided by lwd and Von Poop are great. lwd, bless his blackened soul, is a great generalist, and Von Poop knows more about WW2 land vehicles than is humanly possible. I think he is some kind of Dalek.

And I'd have to concur on their conclusions.

No tank the Germans could produce would make a difference; they couldn't produce enough fuel for the tanks they had, never mind the numbers of tanks the desperately needed. The production quality of the tanks Germany was building, so long heralded as German engineering ingenuity, was starting to falter, already in late '43 (IIRC), as more and more compromises need to be made in terms of materials available (high quality steels, rubber) and technologies, as they simultaneously desperately sought measures to increase production.

Lastly, neither the E-100, nor the Maus was anything anyone really wanted to build. They were a huge waste of resources, when Germany needed not bigger, but more. That is exactly why these tanks designs were basically put on hold, when the war began to get really real in '44.

 

This is the answer that is was searching for.

And over my kursk thing.
That was what I thought and it seamed logical to me.

And I wasnt asking for: Would these panzers turn the tide again?
I was asking: Where these panzers stronger/better then the JS/Patton/Centurion.
So yeah

 

"Stronger" or "better" are rather meaningless when comparing two tanks unless they are defined in some detail. See for example the numerous discussions/comparisons of the MKIV, T34, and M-4. It's also rather difficult to compare a paper tank with one that was actually produced. Then for the model that was actually produced which version are you talking about if it was in production long enough for multiple models to exist? The Centurion for example went through some major modifications over it's lifetime as did the Patton (both the M47 and M48 are referred to by that name by the way).

 

I personally suspect that had progress continued, German tank design was heading into the evolutionary slops bucket.
Their 30s-early 40s creations were ahead of several curves, but the evidence of 'E series' stuff implies they would continue with strangeness like interleaved wheels, compact but delicate engines, difficult access for drivetrain repair etc.
I could see it all eventually leading, if allowed, to strange niche projects like the S-Tank, while thinking it's reasonably uncontroversial to say that, for example, Centurion actually defined the next fifty years of MBT design: BFG, solid, reliable fairly straightforward arrangement set for export and long upgrade life.
The Soviets too kept things simple (with their own obsessions such as pancake turrets and autoloaders), but I find it a little harder to define success for their post-war designs, given that they were issued to client states, rather than competing in a freer market as Centurion had to.

 

This is what I found on wikipedia:
"The Germans were shocked to encounter Soviet T-34 medium and KV-1 heavy tanks, and,[11] according to Henschel designer Erwin Aders: "There was great consternation when it was discovered that the Soviet tanks were superior to anything available to the Heer."[12] The T-34 was almost immune from the front to every gun in German service except the 88 mm Flak gun. Panzer IIIs with the 5 cm KwK 38 L/42 main armament could penetrate the sides of a T-34, but only at short range. The KV-1 was immune to all but the 88 mm Flak gun."

I think if the germans would produce the Entwicklung series then the E50 and E75 would actually be more produced because they would replace the Panther and Tiger.

Thats why the name of the E50 and E75 is StandardPanzer.

And I think these Panzers would fight against the M46, IS3 and Centurion Mk I.

But USA, USSR and the UK would change the design (I think) so they can compete with these new Panzers.
A new Tiger II tank was produced in germany that has a far more better engine then the other Tigers.
This engine was more reliable and used far less fuel, and I think this engine would be improved and used in the Entwicklung panzers and the left over Tigers and Panthers.