Fastest WW2 Fighter plane

No the P-47M was that fast ,I have the primary documents or links to thereof ,to prove it. I've repeatedly stated the website that has those documents. if the P-51H never made frontline service then niether did your Dora13 since you said the number of fingers on your hand was more then were built of the Dora13 so that mean various aircraft like the P-51F/G & P-47J also count. If you don't believe me on the P-51H & P-47M go to the website I mentioned innumerable times.

 

I guess you don't understand what frontline service means ?

To put it simply, the P-51H did not see service in europe during WW2 at all, and its actual top speed was closer to 450 mph.

And as for the P-47M, again its' top speed was 470 mph, some 8+ mph slower than the Dora-13.

 

and slower than the TA 152C and H-0 and H-1

 

No I'm quite right on my figures and I've posted my sources. Now as far as frontline service well don't you think that when a nation's factory producing an aircraft is basically the frontline while the other nations it is at war with's factory is 4,000 miles across an ocean doesn't matter?
On the P-51H...
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-booklet-pg11.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-altperf-91444.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-na117.jpg

Now just for information purposes charts for P-51F/G. The P-51F on military power..still hit 460 MPH...
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/xp-51f-chart.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/xp-51g-chart.jpg

On the P-47M but also check Spitfire Performance website...
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic7.html

Let's also understand that the P-47M hit 473 MPH(with wing racks) at a combat wieght of 14,700 lbs. but could be fitted out as an interceptor at a wieght of 12,935 to 13,655 lbs. . A P-47N hit 467 MPH (with wing racks)at 15,965 to 16,700 lbs. but could also be lightened down to around the same wieght(interceptor) of the P-47M. Even in these lightened conditons the P-47M/N had a radius of around 400 miles . Let's also delete the wing racks which will increase the speed of the P-47M/N & P-51H even more.
One step farther is the fact that even in these lightened conditions all 3 USAAF fighters had loner ranges and carried heavier ammo loads in amount of seconds being to be fired then the '190D or TA-152 series . In fact a P-51B-H could probably be lightened down to 8400-8500, lbs.(and was actually tested at those wieghts) and still have as much range & firing seconds as a 190D or TA-152.
On further research it seems the 450 MPH figure you quoted for the P-51H was a test where the plane used had problems with it's water injection/over boost system and it only was using 100 grade fuel along with just pulling 67" on WEP as did the P-51B-D's furthermore it flew with bomb & wing racks... The graphs I posted a link to earlier were with racks removed. The P-51H eventually pulled 90" on 44-1 fuel and it is stated in the graphs I showed along with "Mustang Designer" credited with 487 MPH.
On the P-47M's some ground crews in Europe managed to eke out a further 15-20 MPH on their planes. Further the speeds I listed for the P-47M/N are with using 100 grade fuel not 44-1 fuel which was availiable.

 

from what I've been able to gather from the Spitfire Performance website...

On 1/11/1945 a performance calculator listed the speed of the P-51H as 471 MPH at 22,700' at 9450 lbs.& 255 gallons of fuel. Further it states 466 MPH at 80" & 447 MPH @ 67".

On 5/1/1945 a test(44-64161) was conducted the plane only reached 450 MPH at 67" at a wieght of 9484 lbs.(with 255 gallons of fuel) & also obtained 444.5 MPH at 61" because the water injection system and manifold pressure regulator didn't work meaning it couldn't be tested at 90". However notice that said plane EXCEEDED it's performance in real life at both 61" & 67" versus the earlier calculated performance.

In a test on 10/14/1946 (44-64182) at a wieght of 9544 lbs. It shows it only obtaining 451 MPH on 90" HOWEVER in the graphs accompanying said report/test it shows that speed of 450 MPH @ 90" while at a wieght of 10,980 lbs. carrying 2-500 lb. bombs. In the same report it has graphs showing much higher speeds without wing racks in settings of interceptor, combat ,long range and fighter bomber modes. I'm thinking that the listing in the report on 450 MPH at 90" was with carrying 2-500 lb. bombs and thusly just misprinted.

A P-51H(NA-117) which at 9302 lbs. hit something like 482 MPH but only carrying 4-.50 caliber MG's,1080 rounds of ammo and 105 gallons of fuel.

Another P-51H (NA-126) at a wieght of 9530 lbs. carrying 255 gallons of fuel,2060 rounds of ammo did seem to hit 487+ MPH . At over 10,000 lbs. it hit 480-485 MPH and in a very lightened condition hit better then 490 MPH.

 

I think he does it's just a matter of whether or not you consider the Germans tendency to put experimental aircraft into combat situations front line service or discount the comparable alled aircraft because they didn't feel the need to do so.

Another fast allied plane that saw service but not combat during WWII was the F7F see:
F7F Tigercat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grumman F7F Tigercat - History, Specifications and Pictures - World Military Aircraft

 

The P-47M was as much a prototype aircraft as any of those put out by the Germans, suffering a great multitude of serious problems during its service life, so there goes that theory of yours.

The peformance of the F7F was nothing spectacular in its initial versions, i.e. the ones which actually were built during WW2. So why you'd mention that aircraft I know not.

 

Of course because citing one example disproves everything...

 

There were 130 P-47M's built wich mainly saw service in defending against the V1's. I think the theory holds.

Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - USA

 

No, his theory does not hold as he claimed that the Germans were so desperate that they would put prototype aircraft into service before they were ready and that the Allies were different in that respect. Reality however is that the Germans weren't anymore desperate about getting anything unfinished into service than the Allies were, the Allies being just as likely to put prototype aircraft into service, which the P-47M solidly proves.

Fact is that the P-47M was as much a prototype a/c as the He-162 & Ta-152 were, and during its service life it suffered a multitude of serious problems because of it.

 

Just why were the Allies desperate in getting the P-47M inservice so quickly ?

 

Well the Germans were fielding 450 mph aircraft so you go figure.

 

But there were other Allied fighters approaching that speed though it involved using special fuels and once again the P-47M equipped 2 FG's while the Dora 13 had only about 17??? produced and about 2??? actually seeing some service.

 

The Meteor was in squadron service before the Me-262 yet the allies weren't in any rush for it to see combat.

 

Big deal.
The Spitfire Mk XIV with a top speed of 448 mph was operational from January 1944.

 

Yes and P-51's just pulling 67" on standard fuel were hitting 442-454 MPH .

 

Seeing that the Meteor was infact slower than their piston engined fighters then why would they be in a rush ?

The Meteor was quite simply too draggy and slow to be of much interest.

Sorry but now you're dreaming, running at 67" hg the P-51 reached a top speed of 437 to 440 mph. There was no P-51 in service doing 454 mph.

I see that this upsets you somehow but I'm gonna have to dissappoint you by pointing out that the 446 mph Mk.XIV had such a limited range that it didn't see much service against the Germans before June 1944, by which time the Germans were fielding much faster aircraft.

That having been said the Spitfire Mk.XIV is one of the most impressive piston engined fighters of the war, and at the time of its service entrance it could only be beaten in speed by other aircraft at low alts, at higher alts it was the fastest piston engined fighter until the arrival of the 109K-4 & Ta-152.

 

The Meteor Mk,I was indeed much slower than the Me-262A, but the Meteor Mk.III, which entered squadron service on December 18, 1944, could do 493 mph, cutting the gap to about 50 mph. And having much more reliablity, and superior altitude capability. The Me-262 was far from perfect. Yes, it was a very advanced design for the time and very "cool" looking, but it was not that great an aircraft in reality.

An aircraft with engines that needed refurbishing after 10 hours, and replacing after 25 hours, and which suffered a severe tendency to flame out at any altitude over 8,000 meters (27,000 feet) is far from perfect, and would NOT have been accepted into any allied air-park. The Me-262 was in essence (like it or not), an "experimental aircraft" pressed into service as an operational one.

Next, the Allied jets, the Lockheed P-80A and Gloster Meteor (especially in its Mk.III version after Dec. ‘44), were certainly comparable to the Me-262 and superior in many areas.

The fact that the Meteor was not used over Europe until 1945 was a policy decision made because of fear of one falling into German hands, and the P-80A didn’t get there until the war was winding up (or down); the first Meteors to deploy to continental Europe were Mk.III aircraft of No. 616 Squadron, which flew to Melsbrook, Belgium, on January 20, 1945 to provide air defense for the base. The Meteor handled better, and had more reliable engines, and longer range, and higher service ceiling (44,000 feet), but the Me-262A still had superior performance in speed at the levels it could reach (under 40,000 feet).

And let's not neglect that the Nene R/R was waiting in the wings at the end of 1944, and while the Nene was very a good engine (as it proved in muliple later jets), it could not be used in the Meteor with out a major redesign because of it's greater size, In 1944 Rolls-Royce proposed to build a scaled-down version of the Nene engine to fit the Meteor, this they did and had it up and ruining with in 25 weeks and producing 3,000 lb of thrust.

The new engine which was designated the "Derwent V" (though it had no relationship to earlier Derwent marks) and was in production by the middle of 1945 and now making 3,500 lb of thrust. The Derwent V was first fitted in the Meteor Mk-IV and powered EE 454 "Britannia" to 606 mph on Nov. 7th, 1945. I wonder how that "draggy and slow" unit would have effected the Me-262s rep. if the war had continued?

 

No I'm not dreaming Prolieator .Now actually I meant 442-444 MPH I just made a typo. We can argue just what the speed was in service was for various Mustangs just like we can argue the same pertaining to 190D's and TA-152's. I'm sure Luftwaffe aircraft typically did better in tests then in real life combat too but be that as it may.Of course maybe if we compared Allied fighters that were put into service as long range escorts to Luftwaffe fighters that were intended purely as interceptors I think that would give the Luftwaffe planes an advantage right? Let's cut the fuel a P-47,P-38 or P-51 carries down to where it only has the range of a 190D or TA-152.

1. At 9200 lbs. without wing racks a Mustang III would hit 450 MPH at 67" on 100 grade fuel.

2. USAAF tested P-51B at 9205 lbs. hitting 442 MPH on 100 grade fuel & 67" at 29,400' and had an initial climb of 4300 FPM.

3. At 9680 lbs. at 67" using 100 grade fuel it hit 444+ MPH and had an initial climb of 3920 FPM.

4. A P-51D at 9760 lbs. using 100 grade fuel pulling 67" hit 442 MPH at 26,000' & at Military Power of 61" hit 439 MPH at 28,000'.

Now the British tested their Mustangs in the UK while the USAAF tested theirs in the Contiental US and of course the weather can make a difference. However Eric Brown has stated that Mustang III's hit 410+ MPH at Sea Level on overboost and SL wasn't exactly the Mustangs top performance envelope. Of course over boost tends to increase a fighters performance more down low then up high however gains of 15 MPH seem to be the norm for overboosting up to 21-25 lbs. and if Mustangs as I've shown above were hitting the 440 MPH figure on 100 fuel & 67" I'm sure 450-455 MPH was within the realm of possibility on say 75" and 150 grade fuel. In fact the British obtained 455 MPH on a Mustang III/IV doing just that. Another thing it was possible to use the Mustang in a pure intercptor role at around 8500-8600 MPH,ala just like the 190D or TA-152 . Of course reduction of wieght doesn't affect speed near as much as it does climb but P-51's tested at much higher wieghts & boost obtained 4500-4600 FPM initial climb so one can imagine the climbwieght of one lightened this much.

 

On the Me 262 one should note:

The wing sweep was done primarily, if not entirely, for CG (Center of Gravity) reasons. It was a fortitious design inclusion that also raised the mach number of the aircraft. The Messerschmitt bureau didn't design it in on purpose for speed reasons.

The engines were hung under the wings due to the inability of then current aeronautical engineering to overcome duct losses in longer ducted designs resulting in the use of the shortest ducts possible. The Meteor was desgined the same way for the same reason.

The Germans having very limited experiance with tricycle landing gear systems had continual problems with the Me 262's landing gear. If you note, the prototypes in 1942 were tail draggers. Only the Henkel design group had any real experiance with tricycle landing gear within the various German manufacturers.

Virtually all late war German aircraft developments remained prototypes pushed prematurely into service. All suffered moderate to severe technical and mechanical problems as a result. The Me 262 was no exception.

The lack of powered controls on the Me 262 is another serious flaw. The aircraft was really unmaneuverable at high speed having a low roll rate and huge turning circle. In addition, the wingloading was very high by contemporary standards.