Fastest WW2 Fighter plane

I'm waiting for my copy which is in transit.

go to : Eagle-Editions and look for the Ta 152 book. so far the reviews are good.

just a foremention as well but this book with Dietmar's will be the sound volumes to pick up for the time being; nowhere the end result on the Ta 152H or it's operations .................yet

 

Yeah, that "operational" part is the catch for the fastest allied plane. And really cannot be disputed other than the little "loophole" that a couple of P-80As were sent to the MTO and flew operational sorties as the war was winding down.

Joe Baugher’s story of the P-80 shows that the planes with serial #s; 44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean. They actually flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft. Both of them fortunately managed to survive their tour of duty in Europe, but one of them crashed on August 2, 1945 after returning to the USA. The other one ended its useful life as a pilot-less drone.

See:

The Lockheed F-80 "Shooting Star"

But unless you consider the V-1s flying bomb to be enemy aircraft (which is also splitting hairs), the Glosters never met piloted enemy aircraft either.

The P-80A was faster than the Me-262A-a1 (and the Meteor), if we compare jets that would have been the first models from all the combatants if the war had continued.

The P-80a maximum speed was 558 mph at sea level and 492 mph at 40,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 4580 feet/minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 5.5 minutes. Service ceiling was 45,000 feet.

The P-80A’s normal cruising range was 780 miles, and maximum range was 1440 miles.

The P-80a’s top speed is slightly faster than the Me-262A-1a at sea level. (558 v 540 miles per hour)
P-80a; Cruise Speed: 410 mph ( 660 km/h)
Max Speed: 558 mph ( 898 km/h)
Ceiling: 45,000 ft (13,715 m)

See:

American Aircraft of WWII

and for Shooting Star C model specs., see:

Factsheets : Lockheed F-80

and for comparing apples to apples, The first production models of the Me-262A-1a:

Specifications (Me 262A-1a):
Engines:
Two 1,984-pound thrust Junkers Jumo 004B-1/-2/-3 turbojets

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 540 mph (sea level)
Ceiling: 37,565 ft.
Range: 652 miles
Armament: Four 30-mm MK 108 cannon in nose

From:

Warbird Alley: Messerschmitt Me 262

The one other British jet-fighter often not remembered is the deHavilland Vampire, now that could have been another competitor in the jet-race if it hadn’t been abandoned while the Gloster Meteor was focused on. It flew in prototype mode in September of 1943 after all. I think this little unit could have been a real surprise to the Luftwaffe if it had been followed up on with the same enthusiasm.

 

the ta 152 was in fact operational as a fighter. i know of 1 pilot who became ace while flying one. if you need the info i will gladly research it for you at a latter date.

 

Just who is saying the TA-152 wasn't operational? I did provide a source saying the TA-152H-1 with GW-1/MW-50 wasn't operational but Erich has since a new source is coming forth stating otherwise. However in Dietmar Harttman's book on the TA-152 on page 142 whereupon a comparison is made involving the TA-152H-0,P-51D and Spitfire XIV ,in this comparison the TA-152 hardly shows an overwheliming superiority over the two Allied fighters especially since I'm sure niether Allied fighter is using any sort of over boost and we don't know what the loadouts for the 3 aircraft are. A P-51 flying as a "pure fighter" at say 9200-9600 lbs is going to be totally different then a P-51 flying with a full load of fuel to escort bombers to Berlin.

 

well the source is going to be in my book covering JG 301

E ~

 

I'll throw in my two cents here and call the Ta 152H operational in name only. Yes, the RLM and the Luftwaffe declared it so but, the reality was it was "operational" in miniscule numbers and the pilots had been instructed to make detailed notes of flight characteristics and problems like one would do in flight testing rather than what would have been expected of a truly operational aircraft.
It was sort of rushed into operational service but required alot more testing as it still had a considerable number of bugs, some serious, to work out.

 

My personal opinion is that operational is best defined as seeing use in a regular squadron as the primary plane of that squadron. The Maus was suppose to have fired a round or two at least at Soviet vehicles but I wouldn't classify it as operational.

 

the Tank was operational from the end of January 45 till wars end albeit in small quantities, and will state there were NO pilots in JG 301 that became aces flying the Ta 152H

 

The term "operational" is somewhat ellastic but the use of a few test vehicles in combat pushes the outer edge of that elastisity. By the same token I'm not sure I would consider the Pershing operational in Europe. While some were sent to Europe and saw combat it was mostlly essentially additioal testing.

 

lwd if you refer to the Ta the best bet would be to talk with pilots, all crates go through testing modes the sad part of it is the Ta was still going through variant testing beyond the H-O and H-1 op crates. the Tank proved itslef under the pilots own words in combat, wherther operational means a whole Geschwader full of 50 aircraft then that is tenuous especially late war when NO JG of NF gruppen was up to strenth standards like in early 1943

 

I referenced the Maus which was a tank. Wasn't familiar with the use of that nickname for the plane which I take it is what you are refering to. In any case my statement stands. I don't consider the use of a few experimental pieces of equipment to mean that said equipment is operational. Currently the US army uses the term Initial Operating Capablity (IOC) date. It means that the first regular unit has been equipeted and trained and is ready to go with the equipment in question. Seem to me to be a very good definition. Using it I'm not sure the Me-262 was operational, certainly the allies would not have considered using a plane with the reliability problems it had. I don't know enough to make a call on the TA-152. By the same token the Pershing may have been operational in WWII but I'm pretty sure that we didn't see any regular battalions so equipped in Europe.

 

The Me-262 was operational. It may have had issues but it was operational. If your definition does not reflect that your definition may need work. No offense of course.

 

I'm sticking with the US army's definition of operational. An essentially experimental craft flown by hand picked pilots and only a few of those doesn't count. No offense taken. Now if you can come up with data showing that it was flown in numbers by a regular LW squadron then it counts as operational. That's also why the p-80 was not operational in Europe. I don't know if any full squadrons were equipped and trained with them in the US before the war was over.

 

suggest looking at Kommando Welter, very operational at night not an experimental unit with single seat 262.

JG 7 with I and III. gruppen, operational during the day, there are enough US 8th AF reports of encounters with the jet including US heavy bomber crews, later 15th AF crews; very much beyond experimental, then you have KG(J) 51 and 54 as well not counting the recon units flying the jet.

 

JG 7 Flew the Me 262 exclusively. This does not include the hear-to-for mentioned JV 44. JG 7 was the unit formed when the Me 262 passed its experimental phase and went into service.

The P-80 saw no combat and only 4 made it to a theater of war. One of these crashed and the others were temporarily grounded. No squadron or wing was assigned the P-80 as its main equipment. I think there is a substantial difference between the P-80 and the Me 262. IMO.

 

How much difference is there between the Meteor and the Me. 262? Also what if the US pushed the P-80 design process a little more or the war was being fought closer to it's shores whereupon it didn't have to ship everything overseas? The Allies just didn't push their experiments as did the Germans.

 

Well most of the refferences I find such as: German Jet Aces of World War 2 - Google Books
indicate that the planes were experimantal when Kommando Welter was formed. A case might be made of them being operational when it was converted to 10th Staffel of NJG 11 but even there the source notes that it's a "special" unit. And reading what's in:
German Jet Aces of World War 2 - Google Books
leaves it a rather open question.

The formation of these groups in 1945 make a fairly good case for it being operational. Some might quible that the hand picked nature of the pilots indicate that they were more of a "special force" but given the conditions the LW was experiancing at that time I don't think that argument is particualry strong.

The fact that the Germans were pushed into using a test aircraft even if in numbers flown by test or hand picked pilots doesn't mean the aircraft was operation or beyond experimental. Indeed looking at the problems associated with it the Western allies certainly wouldn't have condidered making it operational. However by the criteria I proposed the formation of all jet squadrons would qualify it as such. So it's operational as of March of 45.

 

P-80 Shooting Star - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indicates that 45 had been assigned to 412 fighter group by July but I suspect that the pilots of that group were not fully trained in their operation by the end of hte war. So lacking more evidence to the contrary I wouldn't catagorize the P-80 as operational in WWII.

 

As much as I'd love to see the P-80 in the mix, it just missed the cut. There was a full group (30?) deployed to the Philippines as the war was winding down as well, but they were shipped without their wing-tip tanks and batteries.

What a screw up, so they were sitting there with their trained pilots and ground crews, spare parts (sans batteries and tanks) when the war ended.

So they don't make the cut.

 

lwd

the only thing experimental with Welters merry band was his testing of the jet in November of 44 comparing the 262 with the Ar 234 which he also loved but felt it would be doomed being so forward of the fuselage-cockpit without further armor protection. a special unit it was but not a deemd a test unit by any means.

JG 7 pilots were not hand picked for any reason. the transfer was by choice/paper and then possible acceptance or left to be shot down in a piston engine outfit via P-51's. please check JG 7 by Manfred Boehme, it is now in English if you are interested, I would not trust google versions at all. after the test Kommadno in the fall of 44 JG 7 became operational in January of 45 chasing P-38 and Mossie recon crates.

there are many web-site covering all of this with emphasis on the 262, please check them out