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Fateful Strategy

Discussion in 'Atlantic Naval Conflict' started by Wolfpack, Oct 2, 2002.

  1. Andreas Seidel

    Andreas Seidel Member

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    Found it myself. In WW2 almost 22 000 000 tons of Allied shipping was sunk. In WW1 it was just over 12 000 000.
     
  2. Jumbo_Wilson

    Jumbo_Wilson Member

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    The Walter engines were not for the squeamish. The British prototypes, Excalibur and Explorer proved it. Starting up was called "Fizzing"

    "Fizzing in harbour was like a prelude to Doomsday" wrote one Officer. Explorer was not for the fainthearted, the award of an MBE to her first Engineer was not considered excessive. Commander Chris Russell said that if you looked into the unmanned carburettor compartment you could see flames "dancing on the top of the machinery". Explorer suffered a big explosion in 1957. Admiral Bell-Davies says he was "deaf above 20 knots" whilst Russell says that they could be heard underwater from the deck of a Destroyer.

    They were nicknamed Exploder and Excruciator.

    Meanwhile the Soviets abandoned their experiments with HTP after a series of "near-fatal" accidents.

    Also they left a nice trail of bubbles in their wake...

    Jumbo
     
  3. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    @Erich-the author of the book is Dr. Jurgen Rohwer, "Axis Submarine Successes"
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Thanks Wolfpack that is the one ! Say do you have U-Boat by Eberhard Rössler ?

    E
     
  5. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    The book sets next to my computer at home-its like having a U boat in the basement!
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Wolfpack ;

    Thought you might ! ;) It's an excellent book no doubt. Do you by chance have the book U boats against Allied aircraft ? The title may not be quite correct. covers the claims of U-boats via their flak defences against Allied aircraft.

    E
     
  7. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    Erich-I am at work now-but I believe the title is "U Boats vrs. Aircraft", and yes I do-if you need additional info-let me know and I will give complete title and author. Also have "Deep Water/Dark Sky".
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Wolfpack :

    Can you check for me to see which was the most successful U-boot against a/c ?

    thank you

    E
     
  9. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    @Erich-there were several boats that got two or three aircraft-don't know if there was one that stands up above the others. A U boat was a piss poor platform for engaging aircraft, and anyone who made a habit of fighting aircraft on the surface is resting on the bottom of the Bay of Biscay. The attempt to create U-Flak boats was a dismal failure with excessive causalities. I will check for you and see if any boat stands out with more than 3 shot down.
     
  10. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    @ Erich-a quick check which I think is fairly accurate, two boats stand out with 4 kills each. U 256(one plane crashed on its attack run-3 shot down); and Cremer's boat U 333(3/4 kills-one not confirmed). Certainly one of the most interesting events was the duel betwween U 134 and the Blimp off Florida with U 134 being successful, only Blimp shot down. The Blimp was K-74 and the battle was July 18, 1943.

    [ 08 October 2002, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Wolfpack ]
     
  11. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Wolfpack :

    Thank you ! Interesting and a bit intriging.

    I am also curious as to the photo coverage of the book....what does it cover ?

    E
     
  12. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    @Erich-the pictures are spread through the book-however there are never enough!-some shots of various planes and pilots and U boats and Kapitans, with the final shot of two old foes having lunch long after the war.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    I think you're selling me on this book Wolf ! :cool:

    last question on this. Does it have drawings or pics of the various Flak defences on the U-boats ?

    again thank you !

    E
     
  14. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Member

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    @Erich-no line drawings-there are shots of U 995 with the beefed-up AA.
     
  15. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    True, Andreas. But back in WWI that represented 1/4 of ALL the ships afloat in the world... :eek: And certainly Great Britain was closer of starvation then than in WWII. Beside, there were many less U-boats and they were not sunk in such large quantities. There were many advantages in WWII but also many more dangers...
     
  16. Andreas Seidel

    Andreas Seidel Member

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    True, Friedrich. In WW1 things were very different. BTW, today Germany has 7,952,776 tons of shipping while the UK has 3,760,240 tons!!

    Needless to say, neither can compare with Panama at 169,655,363 tons or Liberia at 76,620,648 tons!! :D

    [ 11 October 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Andreas Seidel ]
     
  17. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    You are not talking about Panama's fleet, are you? But the ships that pass near or trough it, right? :D
     
  18. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Top U-Boat Commanders by total tonnage of ships sunk. 1. Kapitanleutnant Lothar Arnauld de la Periere 453,700 tons
    2. Kapitanleutnant Walther Forstmann 384,300 tons
    3. Kapitanleutnant Max Valentiner 299,300 tons
    4. Korvettenkapitan Otto Kretchmer 263,600 tons
    5. Kapitanleutnant Otto Steinbrink 231,614 tons
    6. Korvettenkapitan Wolfgang Luth 228,400 tons
    7. Kapitanleutnant Hans Rose 213,900 tons
    8. Fregattenkapitan Victor Schutze 212,000 tons

    and more great info+pics

    http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/u-boats.htm

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Location:
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    Worldwide Submarine Losses 1939-1945 and more:

    http://www.bosun.net/page14.html#nukesa

    ----------

    Statistics related to the Kriegsmarine Unterseebootwaffe.

    According to Professor Jürgen Rowher, who has made exhaustive studies of the subject, 1 156 U-boats were constructed during the Second World War (this takes no account of 14 captured foreign submarines). Of these only 863 were in operational use. The remainder were either undergoing final fitting, in training or some form of transit to an active U-boat flotilla.

    From the total number of U-boats the following statistics have been drawn regarding their fates.
    663 lost in combat - 266 by enemy aircraft; 243 by enemy naval units; 46 by combined air and sea attacks; 28 for unknown reasons; 24 by enemy submarines; 18 by mines; 12 scuttled as a direct result of combat damage; 10 scuttled due to the impossibility of regaining a friendly port; 9 sunk by collision; 6 captured for some length of time; 1 sunk by Italian Torpedoboat by mistake.

    142 lost (not through combat) - 53 destroyed by bombing in Germany; 34 decommissioned in port before the war's end; 19 scuttled in France or Norway; 16 lost to training accidents; 9 to "friendly" mines; 7 in friendly waters through accidents; 2 handed over to the Japanese; 2 interned in Spain.

    Total percentage of U-boats lost: 65% of all boats lost while 77% of operational boats were lost in combat.

    365 remaining on date of surrender 8th May 1945 - 201 scuttled in or near friendly port; 114 anchored in friendly port; 30 still at sea, made way to Allied port; 10 at sea returned to Germany; 4 scuttled at sea; 4 in Japanese ports; 2 sailed to Argentina and were interned.

    Further to these figures are the interesting observations made by Jak-Mallmann Showell in his book "U-boats under the Swastika" (again based on Rohwer's statistics) that:

    25 boats attacked and at least damaged 20 or more ships
    36 boats attacked and at least damaged between 11 and 19 ships
    70 boats attacked and at least damaged between 6 and 10 ships
    190 boats attacked and at least damaged between 1 and 5 ships.
    Given these figures, 73% of U-boats constructed during the Second World War (including all 1 170 U-boats - whether frontline or training machines) achieved no success against the enemy.

    http://www.uboatwar.net/

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Nice information, Kai. But I have a few doubts here:

    I think Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière sunk many more tons of shipping...
    And were the 2nd and 3rd U-boat commaders in WWI? I suposse, because Otto Kretschmer was the top ace in WWII.
     

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