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Finns not helping Hitler?

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by -, Aug 26, 2007.

  1. Guest

    Hello.

    I think the biggest mistake in WW2 was that Finnish Marshall Mannerheim refused to attack Leningrad. He had the force, but he said that Finns don't go any further. If he did, Hitler would have a whole Leningrad and from Finland they could have transport clothes, ammuniation and food. and they would have in the city and take advantage all the stuff there was. Now Hitler didn't get there and the way from north was closed. And so were relationship to Finland over too.

    I think if Hitler had Leningrad, Moscow couldn't hold either.

    What do you think?

    Cheers

    Higge
     
  2. Guest

    In Mannerheim's defense, was it really a mistake? By limiting Finland's advances to just getting back what they lost in the Winter War, their nation may have been saved from much worse. Had they assisted in the attack on Leningrad, then the Soviets might well have caused much more devastation at the end of the war. In the end, Finland came out of the war a lot better off than many countries. It's hard to call.
     
  3. Guest

    Hi Tom.

    I have to say my spelling didn't get to that point what I was meaning. I had in mind Hitler's point of war. I am also glad Mannerheim didn't get there, reasons you just put. But if Hitler had better relationship to Mannerheim and if Mannerheim wasn't that smart, maybe the end of war had different ending. Maybe not...
     
  4. Guest

    No it was not so much of a mistake the English were sending aircraft parts to Finland Via Sweden .This would of stopped if Finland attacked Churchill had simpthy with the Finnish just look at the bombing raid on Turku the RAFdropped all the bombs in the sea
     
  5. Guest

    I agree with Franz, Finns couldn't do that for their own sake
     
  6. Cate Blanchett

    Cate Blanchett recruit

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    Mannerheim was a smart egg, and knew just what was best for Finland and Finns. But, there is something major that should be remembered.......

    In the heady days of Barbarossa, the German High command could not decide exactly what the final objectives for this major operation were. This is reflected by the very seperation of the three million Barbarossa soldiers into three separate Army groups (North, Center, South), all on an axis of advance that divided, rather than combined, their striking power. The importance of Moscow to the Soviet war machine was not realised, as a simple look at the Soviet rail net could make plain. Leningrad was more a political, rather than military objective; it's industrial potential was not great, and it's location away from the Ukraine and the action in the center meant it was very much a secondary objective in the eyes not only of "Der Chef", but of Heer Generals like Guderian, Bock, Runstedt and von Leeb. Approaches to Leningrad from the German side that were made around the surrounding lakes district ran out of space/time/steam before a conference hosted by Hitler finally gave Moscow as the principle objective before Winter set in. Then, an attack by 2 Panzer Divisions to attempt to get to the outskirts of Leningrad by Army Group North ground to a halt....these two divisions should have been resting in preparation for the next phase of the Moscow offensive, but AGN ignored orders and used them for it's assault, throwing AGC's jump-off timetable for their Moscow push back......A swift Soviet counter-attack around the AGN right flank by Cavalry elements caused alarm bells to ring, forcing Manstein's Corps to race to it's rescue, rather than position itself for an attack through the Valdai region, NW of Moscow. Then, Hitler sent Guderian racing southward to encircle KIEV, which further delayed the push, and put AGC's tanks and vehicles in the un-enviable position of having to rest and refit just when they should have been pushing forward..

    Leningrad faded into the background, becoming secondary to Barbarossa's completion. In view of it's location, lack of appreciable industry and vrtually landlocked port, the fatal decision was taken to SURROUND and STARVE, rather than throw troops that AGN did not have into a frontal assault on the reorganized defences.....Zukhov arrived, spent three days executing commanders and soldiers to 'stabilize' this section, and after this was achieved (at the usual great cost), departed for the MOSCOW front, a region that was rapidly becoming the decision point.....it was felt that, with sufficient re-inforcements, Leningrad could be taken at any time. Bombardment from the air and sea began after the LUGA position was taken, and the great siege began.......

    Mannerheim's decision was in direct support to the wishes of his German allies, and dovetailed very nicely with Finland's strategic policy, which was to simply take back the areas of the country that had been Stolen from Finland after the Winter War ended. This was not announced to the Germans, however, and the wily Mannerheim succeeded in convincing Hitler that Finnish non-movement was due to a lack of equipment and supply, something that the German's themselves were experiencing more and more until their own offensives ground to a standstill. With no possibility of re-inforcing Army Group North, the Finn's simply sat and waited for this German assault to occur before launching an attack of their own.....something that simply did not happen....

    As I say, Mannerheim was a smart one, balancing Finnish national interest with German operational requirements, and all the time pleading for more equipment.........Finland should be proud of Mannerheim's quality as a leader of military operations, the results of which were plain for all to see at the end of the Continuation War. Finland owes this man a great deal....
     
  7. higge

    higge Member

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    [​IMG]
    And we certainly are, he is raised as superhero here. But what if?

    IF Finns attacked to Leningrad, it would have made a very big difference continuing the war further inland. Maybe then German would have easier winter than it was...
     
  8. Cate Blanchett

    Cate Blanchett recruit

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    OK.....we have looked at the situation as it existed, now lets have a look at the possibilities of a Finnish assault actually succeeding......

    The defences around Leningrad were actually quite elaborate. Part of Zukhov's defensive measures was to put in place a series of 'stop' lines; concentric defence installations, dug at great cost and gradually extended. It is often said of Soviet defence positions by the Germans that the longer they are left unmolested, the harder they become to crack....and this was most certainly true of Leningrad on the Finn side. It was not to the advantage of the Finnish attackers to frontally assault a prepared position in depth when there was no attack from the German side. Knowing what we do of the German reluctance to assault Leningrad from their side, it is my suggestion that unsupported attacks from the Finn side would have been a waste of good men....so, to put this into the proper perspective, the longer a General attack was left from the August /September period, the more difficult it became.
    Let us suppose, however, that an attack HAD succeeded...What sort of strategic or tactical position would this have left the Axis in?

    The answer may well suprise you......

    Leningrad is composed of SWAMPS on the Russian side. A German/Finnish occupation would not have been a strategic asset ....If you look at the terrain composition closely, you will see that any advance BEYOND Leningrad would have been difficult, even in the Winter months as the swamps freeze over. The river running south of Lake Ladoga would have been a very handy defence position, and beyond the swamps, open tundra, with little or no railways/roads would mean that supply and communications would have been tenuous at best. Once this barrier is penetrated, the axis of advance would gravitate, naturally, in the direction of ARCHANGEL, or be swallowed up by the steppe country. Successive river barriers and lakes would have meant that supporting drives on Moscow were too far from the operational center to have any decisive effect.......

    Historically, Leningrad lost it's importance as anything more than a winter shelter, or a political symbol. The natural gravitational "pull' of Murmansk (as the only ICE FREE PORT ALL YEAR ROUND) meant that slowly but surely, German/Finnish operations began to concentrate more and more on Murmansk, as the natural supply point for material coming in from the Western Allies....The importance of these resources has often been downplayed by successive Soviet/Russian historians, but the fact remains that it is difficult to see just how The Soviets could have managed their war effort WITHOUT this help. For example, 465,000 Prime mover TRUCKS were sent to the Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic war....63,000 Willy's Jeeps....raw materials, strategic metals...Soviet production facilities recieved a gigantic kick in the backside from Das Heer's 1941 campaign. During 1942, factory floor space for war production was seconded to practically EVERYTHING else. The Soviets simply did not have the industrial capacity at any stage of the war to produce ALL that a fighting, modern military force needed. Therefore, they concentrated on the basic AFV's, artillery etc.....production figures of their T-34 eventually reached over 2,000 units/month. This was WAR production, even at the expence of FOOD, and goes a long way to explaining the anomalies in Russian casualties mentioned elsewhere(many Russians inside their own country died of STARVATION, a fact that most Russian historians gloss over and hide.). German production of AFVs and artillery simply COULD NOT keep up.....and if the Russians had to devote factory floor space to all the other vehicles and things needed, if they had to produce consumer goods, they would have fallen behind very rapidly...

    So, you see....LENINGRAD was not as important as first supposed, and the gravity of the Northern front gradually shifted toward the more important location of MURMANSK/ARCHANGEL......but, resources in 1942 were shifted SOUTH...operation BLUE was a major disaster for the German military. All the oppurtunities present in the North in 1942 were simply not there any more by mid-1943.....
     
  9. higge

    higge Member

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    Yep, off topic a bit but when I was driving there 15 years ago, russian police didn't let us drive trough "Olgino" because we caused building to start shaking.
    So they offered us a different route that made us drive two hours longer :mad:.

    Back to topic.

    Finns tried and even managed few times to blow Murmansk railway away. But it was too small effort to cut their supply lines. And what comes to "American help", many Finn soldiers found in dead russian backpaks lot of american meat in cans. So allies did supply them food too.

    I am beginning to turn on your side of the story that Leningrad may not have been THAT important anymore since there is 800 km to Moscow and that is a long way to bring supplies and wolud need ALOT of men to guard the road along. We also have to remember that Germans were not welcomed by local people, so Russians would soon have their own Sissi platoons...
     
  10. Cate Blanchett

    Cate Blanchett recruit

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    Higge....I am gradually coming around to a the conclusion that a combination of Western writing with Finnish collaboration will produce a powerful and completely NEW look at the way the Russian front was fought....You have already confirmed in my eyes many things that were only speculation 10 years ago....maybe, just maybe, looking at the Russian front from this new perspective could produce a unique view of WW2 that nobody has ever seen before.....EXCITING prospect, and I hope to work on this very site with this in mind....Finnish veterans are in a UNIQUE position...having fought on both sides....If we look at things with a Finnish eye to detail, we may even produce the basis for a VERY new history of the Russian front....and WW2 in general.....

    EXCITING PROSPECT........Finnish veterans, let's hear what YOU have to say!
     

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