Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Firing bolt action rifles in combat conditions

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by Wolfy, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    90
    I'm no shooter, and I'm asking the experts- is working the bolt action a tiring effort? And is it tiring to have to reposition your aim every shot? Is it generally very difficult to hit moving and shooting man-sized targets running from cover to cover at 200-400 meters?

    for your typical well trained rifleman, I mean.
     
  2. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    2
    I guess it would be hard to conststantly work a bolt don,t you ever wonder why the u.s. replaced the springfield with the m1 garand
     
  3. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    90
    I know that, I just want to get a shooter's opinion.
     
  4. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    2
    I shoot bolt actions all the time and they are really annoying to use thats why I hate them
     
  5. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    223
    Yes. Any rifle is hard to hit a target darting to and fro cover at long ranges. A Mg is your best bet.

    As I posted on the "is SMG a waste of time/effort/worth it thread" test results showed that the STEN gun worked better for infantry than a rifle out to 300 yards.

    Using a bolt action is not tiring nor need much effort for an experienced rifleman.

    This is the same for a all full calibre gun. semi or bolt action.
     
  6. tikilal

    tikilal Ace

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    66
    Yep Jaeger is right, any infantry man can shoot that bolt action all day and not get tired of it. It really is not that bad.

    It is hard to hit much of anything at 200-300 yards. Wolfy where do you live... you wanna go shooting?
     
  7. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    90
    Do you remember the title of that SMG thread?

    A sten is better than a rifle? Didn't the Sten have a 40-50 meter effective range?

    I've never fired WW2 era bolt action rifles (Mosin-Nagant, K98, lee-enfield, etc.). So working the bolt action is relatively effortless, I presume.

    Does the M1 rifle/G43 rifle have a significant rise after firing?
     
  8. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    90
    I am not experienced with firearms at all, but I read about them and see them firing on youtube and TV, hahaha.
     
  9. paratrooper506

    paratrooper506 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    2
    well then you need to start firing ww2 era rifles cause I have fired the m1891/30 mosin nagant and the n0.4 lee enfield.
     
  10. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    223
    Triple C likes this.
  11. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    230
    How interesting. That would make a lot of sense. Many US veterans were impressed by the way the Germans used their machine-pistols to suppress and pin the defenders durring an infantry attack. That wouldn't make sense if SMGs were useless beyond 50 meters.

    As for your experience that men tend to attack with more determination if they could fire their weapons on the run, it would appear to me that many reports from the war corroborated your observation. Many says that charging infantry, with their their weapons firing from the hip, also made a tremendous psychological effect by intimidating the defending enemy.

    Thanks for the post.
     
  12. razin

    razin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    83
    No more tiring than shooting a semi auto rifle.

    In the Lee Enfield your not supposed to reposition (by this I assume you mean take your finger out of the trigger and move your head to pull back the bolt). On a Lee Enfield You hold the rifle with your face far enough back on the stock so as to clear the bolt and operate the bolt with you index finger and thumb, your 2nd finger is the trigger pull, further when ten rounds are fired you are meant to re-charge with two clips of 5 again without bringing the weapon off your shoulder. Don't try this drill with a Springfield the bolt system is totally different and takes more effort to unlock, as does the P14-17 enfield.

    I found I could not do this drill with a No4 rifle but I don't have hands like shovels, so I would not have got my bonus pay if I had been in the pre1914 Army, when stooting for pay was a requirement- 20rds aimed into a ten or twelve inch disc at 300yards in 1 minute is I think the requirement
     
  13. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    90
    So is that why the NCO or his no. 2, armed with SMG, generally functioned as the spotter for the 3 man LMG team? Provide covering fire while the 34/42' reloads/changes barrels/changes position?
     
  14. ScreamingEagleMG42

    ScreamingEagleMG42 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    5
    I am thankful enough to own an M1, and it is truly a lot of fun to shoot. I have also had the opportunity of being able to fire a Springfield and a Mauser. Even being an M1 owner i will have to say that the Mauser is the most fun for me to shoot, that may just be because of my fascination with bolt actions though.

    As far as disadvantages, operating the bolt is really no problem, however having to break your aim from the target to do so could be a disadvantage in combat im sure. A lower rate would mean less fire superiority.

    Also the M1 was the first military rifle to use the modern front and rear peep sight, coupling this with its semi auto capability means very quick target acquisition, and being able to keep your target in your line of fire.

    I'm hoping to add a nice K98 to my collection soon however.
     
  15. razin

    razin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    83
    First rifle I know of to have a rear peep sight was the Canadian Ross MkIII and MkIII*
    1910.
    P14 Enfield and P17enfield (date obvious) British No1 MkV (1922) No1 MkVI 1924 and No4 MkI 1931.Danish Krag M1928 French M1936.
     
  16. Mussolini

    Mussolini Gaming Guru WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2000
    Messages:
    5,739
    Likes Received:
    563
    Location:
    Festung Colorado
    I have a bolt-action modern rifle. I would imagine its very similar to WWII Bolt Action Rifles (the mechanism, that is). I have found that from a fixed, support position the 'loss of target' is no worse then when firing a semi/auto rifle, since most of the 'loss of target' is from the recoil. When moving the Bolt, you only have to remove your trigger-hand from its position and nothing else. Of course, the motion is slightly unsteady, due to the arm that the butt of the rifle is nestled against being the one that is moving, so the fire rate is slower.
     
  17. ScreamingEagleMG42

    ScreamingEagleMG42 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    5
    eh, my apologies.
     
  18. Jerome

    Jerome Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    10
    [​IMG]

    I shoot .308 target rifle, bolt action, aperture sights, from 300yds to 1,000 yds, and while long range is admittedly challenging, find no great difficulty in hitting the target (hitting the bull is a different story!). For fun I have shot at and hit Figure 12 targets out to 600yds.

    I and a friend have shot the No4, prone, unsupported, at and hit, 20 oz plastic bottles out to 200yds - several times - but that was an exceptionally accurate rifle.

    Shooting at moving targets with a bolt action, semi-auto rifle or full auto will give the same results if the principles of lead and distance estimation (as in combat) are ignored - a miss. I know there are many proponents of the semi and full auto school, since they do allow faster follow up shots - and with a LMG you can walk your shots in, but then if you hit with your 1st shot follow ups are somewhat redundant.

    For a massed charge at me - I will gladly swap a bolt action for a full auto any day! However, I have fired off a 50rd belt in a GPMG at 300yds with every round a huge miss - much to my chagrin.

    The secret to shooting a No4 in rapid is: while lifting the bolt with the right hand, rotate the rifle with the left hand - clockwise; and reverse the operation with the left hand when closing the bolt. This not only makes opening/closing the bolt easier and quicker, but minimizes the head movement and gives a faster target re-acquisition.
     
  19. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,627
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    I think a more accurate statement might be that the Garand was the first Rifle produce with an "Improved Rear Peep Sight" or "National Match" style sight, beings that it is easily adjusted for windage and elevation by using indexed knobs a similar system that is still in use today on the M16A2 and it's variants.

    I have shot both the M40A2 (Remington 700) and the M21 (M14) and I prefer the M21 for anything within 500M especially multiple of moving targets. Anything past that and I would prefer M40A2.

    While the rifles you name technically have a "peep sight" it is more of an "Improved Tang Sight" or "Improved Leaf Sight" or they incorporated a "Volley Sight".

    Even the M1903A4 had a similar sight to the Garand.

    British WW1 Enfield P14 (.303)

    Canadian Ross 1905 Mk2 (.303)

    US M1917 Enfield (30.06)

    French MAS36 (7.5x54)


    Brad
     
  20. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,713
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    there is another little difference between the Lee-Enfield and the other bolt action rifles of the time, and I believe in all bolt action rifles yet today. The bolt action rear locking lug type, an invention of the American James Paris Lee (along with magazine), is unique in that the rotating bolt has two lugs that lock into the receiver walls at the rear part of the bolt, thus saving some part of the bolt length and bolt pull, when comparing to the forward lugs doing the locking as in a Mauser, Springfield, Arisaka, etc.. In the Lee-Enfield the bolt's distance of travel was identical with the length of the cartridge, not slightly longer as in the Mauser-style actions to make up for the locking lugs, and its rotation was only 60 degrees compared to the conventional 90 degree rotation of Mauser-style actions.

    This design creates a much shorter bolt pull, and the SMLE was a striker fired gun, with its two-stage trigger cocking on the bolt closing action, thus the bolt handle ends up slightly behind the trigger itself. The Mauser and other Mauser-like rifles set their trigger cocking mechanism on the last stroke forward as the action is closed, and the bolt handle ends up slightly ahead of the trigger. Coupled with a shorter bolt pull/rotation for reloading the chamber, position of the bolt in relation to the trigger, the SMLE could be fired quite rapidly and accurately for a bolt-action rifle of the period. While recoil is important in maintaining target aquisition, having to move your entire arm and hand in the Mauser-style complicates the problem. The Garand and the SMLE both reduced that problem out of the equasion, with the recoil remaining. One less thing to "throw one off" target is a good idea.

    All of those differences make the SMLE probably the fastest firing bolt action of all time, and perhaps explains the "mad minute" firing rate with the UK and Commonwealth troops were capable of.
     
    Triple C likes this.

Share This Page