Fliegerhorst Gilze-Rijen. Archaeology & Research.

I know this happens all the time. People will carry it in their garage and it ends up being thrown away. That's how Lancaster debris near my house went to a scrape yard last year because the old man who had them died and the new owner got rid of them.

 

Thats such a shame.
If you look in Germany, on some places in the Huertgenwald the woods were cleaned by authorities, they destroy everything!! I know somebody who has spoken to these guys and the only thing they take with them is a very, very(!) good helmet... all the others is going to the scrap yard. Once a time my friend seen a huge container full with american 75 MM cartridges... going to the scrap yard. He asked of 1 ore 2 of them for his collection, the answer was no.

 

That's how I missed a DB605 engine.. They prefered to throw it away. I'm still sick when I think about it. Fortunately, many years later I could recover the lateral turbo disc which must have fallen off.

 

OK, here some findings done last night, went for over an hour about 00.00 am. Yes this is my addiction.
Found a lot of 20 mm Hispano Suiza 404 cartridge belts (don't know the exact word), and some empty .303 clips.

 

more great pics!!
thanks buddy!
found some nice items at an estate sale that the family would not part with, (why were they at the sale?) but i checked back 3 weeks after the sale, and found out that the grandson had thrwon most of it out as garbage! none of them wanted it at all! what a waste!! medals, ribbons, a large shell, and a huge box full of German stuff he took off of dead german soldiers.

 

Interesting! Was it all trown in the garbage???

 

Wow, do these clips come from a French aircraft machine gun ?

 

yeah,, they told me the garbage guy took it all 2 weeks before, i even drove to the dump site, but after seeing it there was no way i would have been able to track it down!

 

Damned.... thats **** up!

 

yeah, i was seriously depressed about that, i still recall the event as though it happened yesterday, because this was my first REAL find! Oh well!

 

Tell us more about the 20 mm Hispano Suiza 404 please

 

20 x 110 MM HISPANO SUIZA 404.

The Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20 mm autocannon was one of the most widely used aircraft weapons of the 20th century, used by British, American, French, and many other military services. Firing a 20 mm diameter projectile, it delivered a useful load of explosive from a relatively light weapon. This made it an ideal aircraft weapon, replacing the multiple 7.62 mm (.30 caliber) machine guns commonly used in military aircraft in the 1930s.

It was based on the earlier Swiss Oerlikon FF S weapons, which Hispano-Suiza manufactured under license in France as HS.7 and HS.9. In the late 1930s engineer Mark Birkigt designed a new and much improved version with a revised action, much faster rate of fire, and somewhat higher muzzle velocity. The result was the Type 404, or HS.404, which was widely considered the best aircraft cannon of its kind. The 404 was widely used on pre-war French designs, notably in installations firing through the drive shaft of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine, a system known as a moteur-canon. The HS.404 was fed by drum magazines that could accommodate at most 60 rounds. Since in most installations the magazine could not be switched during flight, the small ammunition capacity was problematic. In 1940, Hispano-Suiza was developing a belt-feeding system, as well as derivatives of the HS.404 in heavier calibres such as 23 mm, but all these projects were halted with the German occupation of France.
In the meantime, Great Britain had acquired a license to build the HS.404, which was first used in a British fighter as the Hispano Mk.I with the Westland Whirlwind of 1940. British engineers developed a belt-feeding mechanism. The new design was adopted by the RAF and FAA in 1941 in a slightly modified form as the Hispano Mk.II. Four cannons replaced the eight Browning .303 machine guns in the Hawker Hurricane and in tropical versions of the Supermarine Spitfire, and became standard armament in later fighters. Most other Spitfires had only two cannons, because of technical difficulties (i.e., inadequate gun-heating capacity for the outboard cannon leading to the gun freezing at high altitiudes), along with four 0.303 calibre or two 0.50 calibre machine guns.
The gun was also licensed for use in the United States as the M1, with both the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC) and U.S. Navy planning to switch to the 20 mm as soon as sufficient production was ready. A massive building program was set up, along with production of ammunition, in 1941. When delivered the guns proved to be extremely unreliable and suffered a considerable number of misfires due to the round being "lightly struck" by the firing pin. The British were interested in using this weapon to ease production in England, but after receiving the M1 they were disappointed. In April 1942 a copy of the British Mk.II was sent to the U.S. for comparison, with the differences being primarily that the British version used a slightly shorter chamber that they believed was the cause of the U.S.'s problems.
The U.S. declined to modify the chamber of their version, but nevertheless made other different modifications to create the no-more-reliable M2. By late 1942 the USAAC had 40 million rounds of ammunition stored, but the guns remained unsuitable. The U.S. Navy had been trying to go all-cannon throughout the war, but the conversion never occurred. As late as December 1945 the Army's Chief of Ordnance was still attempting to complete additional changes to the design to allow it to enter service.
Meanwhile, the British had given up on the U.S. versions and production levels had been ramped up to the point where this was no longer an issue anyway. They upgraded to the Hispano Mk. V, which had a shorter barrel, was lighter and had a higher rate of fire, although at the expense of some muzzle velocity. One of the main British fighters to use the Mk. V was the Hawker Tempest Mk. V Series II, which mounted a total of four. The U.S. followed suit with the M3, but reliability problems continued. After World War II the United States Air Force (USAF) adopted a version of the M3 cannon as the M24, similar in most respects except for the use of electrically primed ammunition.
The Hispano fired a 130 gram (4.58 oz) 20 mm × 110 mm projectile with a muzzle velocity between 840 and 880 m/s (2,750 and 2,900 ft/s), depending on barrel length. Rate of fire was between 600 and 850 rounds per minute. It was 2.36 m (7 ft 9 in) long, weighing between 42 and 50 kg (93 and 110 lb). The British Mk V and American M3/M24 weapons were lighter with higher rates of fire than the early HS.404 guns.
In the post-war era the HS.404 disappeared fairly quickly due to the introduction of revolver cannon based on the German Mauser MG 213. The British introduced the powerful 30 mm ADEN cannon in most post-war designs, and the French used the very similar DEFA cannon, both firing the same ammunition. The USAF introduced the 20 mm M39 revolver cannon to replace the M24, while the Navy instead combined the original Hispano design with a lighter round for better muzzle velocity in the Colt Mk 12 cannon.

Some drawings on my website.
UK Vliegtuig munitie: - 20 mm Hispano Suiza 404 - Bodemvondsten : Forum tweede wereldoorlog

 

Some pictures in my possession.

 

Wow, this is more than I could dream off. Thanks for mentionnig this, I am actually learning from it. I like the "botlte" dark green ground colour paint. I didn't know it was used by the Americans.

 

The 20 MM HS was mostly used by the Brittish, These ones as well.

 

Yes that's what I thought but by reading your article I found out that Americans used it too. I don't know if the quantities were confidential or not, but it was quite a surprise for me to read it. No surprise about the Bristhish and the French, I knew both armies used it. Interesting, this is why I like this forum. thanks Nick.

Something else. How far is Tilburg from Gilze Rijen? Is there a chance you could get to the cemetery there and get a few pictures or is it to far? No hurry here. It's about the Molenschot guys.

Also: I recently read the story of an allied airman who possibly got excecuted in Tilburg by the Gestapo. Interested?

 

If you give me the names. I got many pictures of this cemetery! From almost every grave.
Just visited the 7 jan '44 crashsite today with my metaldetector. No finds unfortunately. But I'm not done yet.

 

Tilburg you say Nick, I may have 1-2 requests for photos scans if possible soon, let me have a look in the losses data

E ~ good stuff

 

No problem Nick. I will check my names and send you the list.

 

Hi guys!
On monday eve I found a very nice object!
Its English and I think it is something from the cockpit of a airplane.
After cleaning I found some text on the tags.

SUPPLY
PORT STARBOARD

A.M.
REF. NO. 6A/1442​

A.M. means Air Ministry I presume.
Enjoy the pictures.




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