Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

French AFV mounted guns

Discussion in 'Armor and Armored Fighting Vehicles' started by yan taylor, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    36
    Hi, I have been reading about French AFVs in 1940 and come across some very interesting vehicles, So I decided to look into them a little further and there was a lot of stuff missing concerning the guns which were mounted on them, please see below.

    47mm L/30 SA-34 Gun
    Mounted on the PANHARD-178B / AMC-34 / CHAR-B1 / CHAR-D1. ·
    [FONT=&quot]Max HE Range: ?[/FONT]

    47mm L/32 SA-35 Gun
    Mounted on the [FONT=&quot]AMC-35 / S-35 / CHAR-B1 Bis / CHAR-D1B.
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Max HE Range: ?

    [/FONT] 75mm L/9 Schneider Howitzer
    Mounted on the FT-17 BS
    [FONT=&quot]Elevation: ?
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Max HE Range: ?

    [/FONT] 75mm L/17 SA-35 Gun
    Mounted on the char-b1 Bis
    [FONT=&quot]Max HE Range: ?

    [/FONT] 75mm L/29 APX 1897 Gun
    Mounted on the FMC-2C
    [FONT=&quot]AP Capabilities: ?

    [/FONT] 75mm L/51 mle 1913/34 AA Gun
    Mounted on the SPAA
    [FONT=&quot]AP Capabilities: ?

    There was a 75mmL/12 mle infantry gun mounted on some vehicles, but I have mo data at all.
    Thanks for any help, Yan.
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]


    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
     
  2. dazzerjeep

    dazzerjeep Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    29
    I'll see what I can find for you tomorrow Yan
     
  3. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    36
  4. dazzerjeep

    dazzerjeep Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    29
    Havn't got a lot of info I'm afraid

    47mm SA34 L39 gun
    Ammunition
    Obus de rupture Mle 1892 (APHE) - 450m/s
    Obus explosif type D (HE) - 490m/s
    Obus explosif type B (STEEL) Mle 1932 (HE) - 480m/s

    47mm SA35 L/32 gun
    Practical AT range 800m - 1000m Velocity of AP - 660m/s (max range 6500m)
    Ammunition HE
    Obus de explosif Mle 1932 (HE) - 590m/s

    Back to the maths again!
     
    yan taylor likes this.
  5. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    451
    yan taylor likes this.
  6. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    36
    Thanks Guys, I wonder if the 47mm SA-34, 47mm SA-35 & 47mm SA-37 had the same HE range of 6.500m, a problem has come up with the barrell length of these pesky French 47mm guns, I have now three different calibres for the same weapon.
    47mm SA-30 L/21 ? (Tiredoldsolier)
    47mm SA-30 L/30 ? (Yan)
    47mm SA-30 L/39 ? (Darren)
    This is a common problem which I have seen before, different nations messure there barrells in different ways, the Italains are the worst at this, but we will prevail.
    Thanks again, Yan.
     
  7. dazzerjeep

    dazzerjeep Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    29
    Normally the longer the barrel the higher the muzle velocity, basically keeping the explosive power of the charge confined for a longer period of time forcing the shell out quicker, But this only works expertentionally
     
  8. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,382
    you might get a few hits by typing a few key words in french like "canon de 75" and "portée" (range)
     
  9. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    451
    Range is determined by not just muzzle velocity but also by elevation, most tank mounts cannot do more tha 20 degrees so achieve significantly shorter range than the gun's theoretical capability, the field mount is credited with 6500m max range (1000 practical) but has a much highe muzzle velocith than the tank guns (855 m/s) I will see if I can dig up some data for the tank mounts.

    As to which gun was used in which tank for the 47mm I have:
    D2 and B1 tank - APX-1 turret with SA34 47mm L21 but according to chars francais site the B1 were rearmed with the SA35 in spring 1940
    Somua and B1bis - APX-4 turret with SA35 47mm L32 (or L34 according to other sources)

    The L53 (or L52) SA37 and SA 39 were probably only on field carriage and significantly more powerful than the tank guns.

    Another interesting site http://www.figurines.miniatures.de/obus-francais.html (a German site with what looks an automated translation from French to English !!!!)
    it mentions Pz II rearmed with Frenct 37mm L33 for Barbarossa, anybody has confirmaton of this?
     
    yan taylor likes this.
  10. dazzerjeep

    dazzerjeep Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    29
    I totally agree on the elavation
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    24,985
    Likes Received:
    2,382
    No confirmation for the Pz II but this was higly probable. I have pictures of recycled Hotchkiss tanks in German colours heading to the east Front in 1941. A whole bunch went from southern France, through Paris and then eastwards (possibly by train) . Another instance is the Renault tanks turrest used as canon on the Atlantik wall.
     
  12. dazzerjeep

    dazzerjeep Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    29
    yes there are mentions of that, but I do agree with the Atlactic wall
     
  13. yan taylor

    yan taylor Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    36
    Yes I agree also about the FT-17 turrets, one was in action at WN-5 on Utah beach, the WN was commanded by 2nd Lieutenant Jahnke and the FT-17 Gunner was Lance Corporal Friedrich, I think the FT-17 turret was only armed with a machine gun.
     
  14. caryn

    caryn recruit

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Apologies for thread necromancy---I actually use this information!

    So yan wrote:

    47mm SA-30 L/21 ? (Tiredoldsolier)
    47mm SA-30 L/30 ? (Yan)
    47mm SA-30 L/39 ? (Darren)

    So, according to "France 1940 - l'armement terrestre", Stéphane Ferrard, ISBN is 2-7268-8380-X:

    47mm SA34 is the Canon de 47mm Semi-Automatique Modèle 1934 Hotchkiss Anti-Chars (47mm SA34H AC), a 47mm/L30 rifle (1,410mm Longueur du Tube), firing the 47mm×139R cartridge, arming the Char D1 and early models of the Char B1 and Char S35.

    47mm SA35 is the Canon de 47mm Semi-Automatique Modèle 1935 Puteaux Anti-Chars (47mm SA35P AC), a 47mm/L35 rifle (1,598mm Longueur du Tube), firing the 47mm×193R cartridge, arming the Char D2, the Char B1-series (B1, B1bis, and B1ter) and Char S35.

    47mm SA37 is the Canon de 47mm Semi-Automatique Modèle 1937 Anti-Chars (47mm SA37 APX AC), a 47mm/L53 rifle (2,350mm Longueur du Tube), firing the 47mm×380R cartridge, and not fitted to any AFV active in the 1940 campaign. The SA37 was a derivative of...

    47mm SA34P, the Canon de 47mm Semi-Automatique Modèle 1934 Puteaux Région Fortifiée (47mm SA37P RF), an update to the Canon de 47mm Modèle 1902 naval rifle intended for the emplacements (ouvrages) of the Maginot Line (la ligne Maginot). Although not particularly successful as an Anti-Tank (Anti-Chars) Gun, it did lead to the more effective SA34 and SA35, and ultimately to the superior 47mm SA37 and SA37m39.

    One of the issues involved is nomenclature---different nations employed differing nomenclature for the guns. Most preferred a simpler scheme, using rounded numbers like L/77 instead of L/77.5. Some preferred to use incremental nomenclature, so L/50 for L/53, L/30 for L/28, &c. Then there's the Bofors 40mm/L60 which was commonly referred to as the L/56, the difference between bore-only vs bore-and-breech.

    For the French rifles, the importance of the bore length was less critical than the size of cartridge---the 47mm/L30 rifle was not that much longer than the 47mm/L35 rifle, but the 139R cartridge was much less powerful than the 193R. Also, the newer SA35 rifle had better ammunition provided, the Obus de Rupture Modèle 1935 (OR35) and Obus d'Explosif Modèle 1932 (OE32---some sources used "Obus d'Explosible" for HE). The heavy SA37 was a tank-killer, and included much-improved ammunition---Obus de Rupture Coiffe Modèle 1936 (ORC36---an AP shell with an incendiary (Magnesium) Cap which left a bright flash or puff when striking metal), and the Obus de Rupture Modèle 1936 (OR36) without the cap; the Obus d'Explosif Modèle 1932 Modifié 1939 (OE32m39). The SA34 fired the Obus de Rupture Modèle 1892G (OR92G---an old APHE shell) and two types of the Obus d'Explosif Modèle 1932 'B' and 'D' (OE32B & OE32D).

    For all of this, the main type of gun arming French AFVs remained the ancient 37mm SA18, the Canon de 37mm Semi-Automatique Modèle 1918 Puteaux (a modification to the 37mm SA16 TRP---the even smaller Tir Rapid Puteaux), a 37mm/L21 rifle firing the 37mm×94R cartridge and the Obus de Rupture Modèle 1892 Modifié 1924 (OR92m24---an APHE) or the Obus de Rupture Incendiaire Modèle 1935 (ORI35---a "HV" AP round for the little 37mm×94R). The HE shell was the Obus d'Explosible Modèle 1916 (OE16), which was also fired from the TRP, a Great War-era Infantry Gun. The 37mm SA18 was useful against roadblocks, dug-in infantry, and strongpoints, but not much else. Against AFVs it needed to be close to get a hit, and closer to make it count.

    The 37mm SA38 gets good press, but really shouldn't. While it was superior to the SA18 as an Anti-Tank Gun, that rwally isn't saying anything at all. The Canon de 37mm Semi-Automatique Modèle 1938 AMX AC, is a 37mm/L33 rifle firing the 37mm×149R cartridge. The SA38 fired the Obus de Rupture de Coiffé Modèle 1938 (ORC38) and the Obus de Explosible Modèle 1938 (OE38), both quite modern rounds with good ballistics. The recoil from the 37mm SA38 was too great to retrofit the rifle into some of the small---and fragile---French recce vehicles, like the AMRs, and the A/T performance of the SA38 was well below that of its contemporaries, making its employment in upgraded tanks like the H.36m38 or R36m39 suspect---though as a stop-gap in infantry companies, replacing the TRP, it might have had value. Hitting and killing still required the French AFVs to get far too close---something their profiles and suspensions did not make any easier.

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers
    KAH
     

Share This Page