Friendly Air to Air Kills. Blue on Blue incidents

"Koldunov's fortunes rose during WW2 as a Yak pilot when he became a specialist in the hit-and-run diving attack, aggressively firing at close quarters and breaking away to attack again. Many of his air victories were scored against Luftwaffe fighter craft in the Southern sector. Koldunov's WW2 service included one of aviation history's most unlikely dogfights-- against USAAF Lightnings of the 15th AF in a case of mistaken identity. Koldunov who reportedly shot down 3 American aircraft in the melee put an end to the friendly fire incident by bravely closing alongside the Lightnings to establish his flight's identity as "friendly" Soviets. "

Collect Russia <b>Certificate for the Marshal Star and the Rank of Supreme Marshal of Air Force, with original case of issue</b> Awarded in 1984 to Aleksandr Koldunov, the eighth highest scoring Soviet fighter ace of WW2, twice Hero of the Soviet Uni

 

I remember this was done also to the IFF to try and prevent incidents. Also taking the red dot out of the Pre-war roundel used by the USAAC and USN.

"Those operating in the Pacific theater acquired a specialized British insignia -- a modified blue-white roundel with white "bars" to make it look more like a US than a Japanese insignia to prevent friendly-fire incidents."

 

I wonder how much this was an issue in Blue on Blue? IMO The similarity of aircraft types would be more of a factor.

 

"P-38 Lightening vs YAK 9
After coming across limited sources on the incident that happened on the 7th of November, 1944, all I discovered was a report from the headquarters of 866 IAP. In this report, it states that at 12:50pm 12 American planes( P-38 Lightening) attacked a Russian Infantry that were traveling west from Nish. Four of the American planes started an attack on the Russians while the rest of them was keeping watch at 1500 meters. After several rounds were fired, the Russian artillery shutting down one of the American P-38 planes. At 1:00pm, 2 YAK-9 planes took off. At 1:05pm, 6 more YAK-9 planes followed and then at 1:10pm 2 YAK-3 planes also followed. A dog fight broke out between the countries ending with 2 YAK-9 planes being taken down by the Americans and one more by friendly artillery fire. Russian planes and antiaircraft artillery shut down 5 Lightening planes. The P-38 displayed an impeccable ability to maintain horizontal and were were able to quickly maneuver onto the tail of YAK-9 planes because they had a much shorter radius of banking(turn-in). The YAK-9 had better ability to withstand vertical maneuvers.

First, I am looking for more information regarding this fight. ( Air Classics Vol. 38, No.8 August 2002 is the information that I currently already possess) "

P-38 Lightening vs YAK 9 - Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

 

This is from an Air Classics Article, Aug., 2002 by Lee K. Carr

"RECALLING A LITTLE-KNOWN BATTLE BETWEEN AMERICAN P-38s AND SOVIET YAKS

This mission was flown by the 82nd Fighter Group 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons - with the lead squadron being the 95th. Duration of mission was four hours. This mission was a request by the Russians, as a repeat support mission to be flown by the same group. The Russian ground forces had the Germans in retreat and, on the previous missions, the P-38s had done tremendous damage.

The mission was briefed to attack enemy columns and rail movements between Sejenica, Novipasar, Baska and Nitrouica in Yugoslavia but before I comment any further on this mission, I would like to make it clear that Group Commander Colonel C.T. Edwinson, an experienced pilot with more than 4000 hours and a veteran of 27 combat missions, personally led the mission. Some of the information in this article comes from three outgoing messages then confidential and top secret, but now declassified.

The first report was dated 13 November 1944 and was from Allied Forces Headquarters, Caserta, Italy, and directed to the War Department. This report gave an account of the mission after a detailed investigation concerning attack by USAAF Lightnings on a Soviet column in Yugoslavia on 7 November 1944. This report stated, "At about 60 miles southwest of Sejenica, the squadron split up and hit the deck and headed for their respective assignments. Colonel Edwinson's squadron arrived at what he thought to be Novipasar, found the road heavily trafficked and proceeded with his strafing - actually as verified by our camera later, he began his strafing at Krusevac and continued through Cicevan, to Nic." The report continued, "As his squadron completed its strafing and pulled off they were attacked by Red Air Force Yaks and in the first pass one Lightning was shot down. Colonel Edwinson immediately recognized the attackers as Yaks but, in the ensuing airfight before he could disengage and assemble his fighters, another Lightning and two, three or more Yaks were shot down. As his squadron was assembling, the Yak flight leader slid up to him and the two flight leaders confirmed mutual identification. Throughout this time the top cover squadron did not join the fray This was when Col. Edwinson immediately ordered the 95th Squadron to disengage. "It's the Russians, let's get the hell out of here," he radioed. I figure it was about this time that Captain Koldunov must have closed in with Col. Edwinson and flew formation until identities were clearly confirmed and all fighters immediately broke off combat. If this is what happened, it was very courageous. We all know it's rather hard to stop a fight after several blows have been swapped.

I have wondered where the Yaks were when we started strafing. We did more damage on this flight than any strafing mission I was on in my 50 missions.

Of the two P-38s that were lost: One was shot down in flames by a Yak, but we don't know if the second P-38 was shot down by a Yak or ground fire. The two pilots were Lt. Eldon E. "Gene" Coulson and Lt. Phillip Brewer. Lieutenant Keith Armstrong was hit by ground fire which knocked out one Allison, but he returned to base on single engine. Incidentally, during the aerial combat I might add Lt. George A. Bowers, Jr., was chasing a Yak and the pilot did his best to shake the P-38. The Russian did some barrel rolls so Lt. Bowers could only fire at him at the bottom of the roll. Finally, the Yak hit the deck and flew across an airfield in hopes of having the Russian antiaircraft shoot the P-38 off his tail. These were old German tricks but Lt. Bowers, seeing the planes on the airfield beneath him, dropped his nose and strafed across the field. This was never mentioned in any report. Lieutenant Bowers broke off at this time when he heard the Colonel's call.

I didn't know what these fighters were until we returned to our base in Foggia, Italy. We all went through a very special interrogation on an individual basis with the brass from Wing Headquarters. Colonel Edwinson asked us to identify on a map the exact location we thought we had been strafing. I found where I was from a location of a church I kept as a point of reference. I was in the wrong area, but I still contend we could have been led into the wrong valley by strafing this convoy which had advanced too far. It has been commented that the Russians had failed to advise Foggia that, between the previous day's support mission, Russian ground forces had advanced the battle line by 100 kilometers.

We were always, as a rule, three days behind the Russian intelligence, we had very little Russian aircraft identification, and we never had liaison between the air and ground forces involved on any Russian front. I was of the opinion we had a 50-mile line from any of the known Russian lines and after this incident officials set up restrictions prohibiting tactical operations closer than 80 miles from known Soviet positions.

I could never blame Col. Edwinson. I still feel as I look back that such a mission was inevitable sooner or later and the law of averages would catch up with us. The many missions on which we supported the Red Forces, with very heavy German destruction, must not be overlooked."

 

This says alot about quite a bit of the "Blue on Blue" incidents.

 

I have read of this before on some other sites. It seems to be an exteme possibility. But it could have happened.

"An airplane carrying famed big band musician and US Army Air Force bandmaster Major Glenn Miller disappeared over the English Channel on December 15, 1944 en route from England to France. Most evidence indicates that the aircraft strayed into a zone designated for the safe dropping of unexpended bombs by allied aircraft, and was knocked out of the sky by the blasts of British Royal Air Force bombers returning from an aborted mission over Germany."

Friendly fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I have read the same thing and of all the theorys about his death, that makes the most sense to me.
I think it was just one Lancaster returning home.

 

And what do you think of the odds of that happening with a single Lancaster and the Norseman C-64 that Miller was in? Pretty damn astronomical I would say IMO.

 

So what is your theory on his death ?

 

Not sure really. It may have just been some type of accident or pilot error. Even some massive type of system or mechanical failure.

 

"On the afternoon of December 15th, 1944, Maj. Glenn Miller boarded an RAF Norseman C-64 aircraft. The plane left an RAF base in England to take Miller to Paris, where he would join up with the rest of his band for a show. The plane never arrived.
The official story was that foggy weather led to a crash over the Channel. But rumors ran rampant among the American troops still in Britain that Miller had been accidentally shot by an MP in Paris, or that a German assassination squad had shot down Miller's plane. The Army (said the rumors) had covered up the incident in order to preserve morale. Miller was one of the premiere performers of the time, and his death--because the Army had failed to protect him or because a jumpy MP had screwed up--had to be portrayed as an accident.
A more likely explanation emerged later. Fred Shaw was a navigator with the 149th Squadron based in Norfolk. According to his logbook, on December 15th his squadron was sent to make a bombing run over Seigen, Germany. However, once the planes reached Brussels, they were told to abandon the run because of bad weather. Returning home, they went to the "southern jettisoning area" 50 miles south of Beachy Head on the Channel to get rid of their bombs. Trying to land a plane with a full bomb load was suicidal--not only did the extra weight of the bombs make landing dangerous, a mistake in landing would easily turn into a catastrophe were the bombs to detonate. So the Allies had designated large areas of sea where air and ship traffic was forbidden and bombers could safely unload cargo that hadn't been "sent with a kiss" to the Germans.
Just after unloading the bombs, the bombardier called out that there was a plane below them. Shaw looked out the window and saw a Norseman flying south at 1500 feet. Bombs were going off all around it. Just before it disappeared from Shaw's line of vision, it went into a tailspin. Seconds later the rear gunner called out that "there's a kite just gone in down under." Shaw's aircraft then returned to base. Since they had never crossed into enemy territory, the crew never reported the plane they had seen go down over the Channel. "

 

"On the afternoon of December 15th, 1944, Maj. Glenn Miller boarded an RAF Norseman C-64 aircraft. The plane left an RAF base in England to take Miller to Paris, where he would join up with the rest of his band for a show. The plane never arrived.
The official story was that foggy weather led to a crash over the Channel. But rumors ran rampant among the American troops still in Britain that Miller had been accidentally shot by an MP in Paris, or that a German assassination squad had shot down Miller's plane. The Army (said the rumors) had covered up the incident in order to preserve morale. Miller was one of the premiere performers of the time, and his death--because the Army had failed to protect him or because a jumpy MP had screwed up--had to be portrayed as an accident.
A more likely explanation emerged later. Fred Shaw was a navigator with the 149th Squadron based in Norfolk. According to his logbook, on December 15th his squadron was sent to make a bombing run over Seigen, Germany. However, once the planes reached Brussels, they were told to abandon the run because of bad weather. Returning home, they went to the "southern jettisoning area" 50 miles south of Beachy Head on the Channel to get rid of their bombs. Trying to land a plane with a full bomb load was suicidal--not only did the extra weight of the bombs make landing dangerous, a mistake in landing would easily turn into a catastrophe were the bombs to detonate. So the Allies had designated large areas of sea where air and ship traffic was forbidden and bombers could safely unload cargo that hadn't been "sent with a kiss" to the Germans.
Just after unloading the bombs, the bombardier called out that there was a plane below them. Shaw looked out the window and saw a Norseman flying south at 1500 feet. Bombs were going off all around it. Just before it disappeared from Shaw's line of vision, it went into a tailspin. Seconds later the rear gunner called out that "there's a kite just gone in down under." Shaw's aircraft then returned to base. Since they had never crossed into enemy territory, the crew never reported the plane they had seen go down over the Channel. "

And even a rumor he died in a French brothel!!!

 

"Since they had never crossed into enemy territory, the crew never reported the plane they had seen go down over the Channel."

Thats seems strange though. If they knew one went down why wouldn't they? And why because they had never crossed into enemy territory? Especially if Shaw recognized that it was a Norseman.

 

Over the years there have been much speculation as to what happened.

• One of the most widely held beliefs is that the aircraft Miller was flying in was victim to friendly fire of a sorts. At the time B-17s returning from the front, dropped unused bombs over the English Channel before returning to their home base. In a freak accident, a load of these bombs may have hit the lower flying UC-64 in the dark. For more regarding this particular theory, click here.
• Another account had him in Paris dying in the arms of a prostitute.
• Still another had him captured by the Germans and dying during the war in a prison camp.
• Then there is the account of Fred W. Atksinson, Jr. According to Atkinson, who was a member of the 320th Air Transport Squadron based at Le Borge' Airport at Paris, France, one of there aircraft was used to transport Miller to Paris. - "Several days after our plane left London, we were notified that an aircraft that might be ours had crashed on the coast of France and that the occupants were dead. We dispatched a plane to that location and the aircraft and the bodies of our pilots were identified. Our crew also said that the other body definitely was that of Glenn Miller. They said there were identification papers and dog tags that were on his body. Our second crew that was in London at the time verified they had witnessed Glenn Miller and our two pilots board the aircraft and depart"

Glenn Miller - Missing over the English Channel

 

The bombs, which had to be discarded before the bombers could safely land, exploded just above the water.
Shaw remembered seeing a small plane spiraling out of control after the bombs were dropped.
"Around it, I could see the sea bubbling and blistering with the exploding bombs. As each bomb burst, I could see the blast wave from it radiating outwards. ... It was obvious to me that airplane below was in trouble," he once said. "Eventually, I saw it disappear into the English Channel."
The downed plane was not reported, but Shaw's story was corroborated by other squadron members. And in 1985, Britain's Ministry of Defense wrote a letter to Shaw conceding his theory "is certainly possible."
"In retrospect, we now lean towards this being the most likely solution to the 'mystery," the department concluded. "

Logbook is key to bandleader's disappearance: 4/10/99

Still strange that they wouldn't report a plane going down in that area.

 

In the European Theater of Operation, there were Ameri-
can bomber crews who became the victims of friendly fire
while in the air.

"We lost two ships in our group due
to our own bombs dropping on them."

Fatal bomber accidents were not limited to training venues.
There was the tragedy of American bombers crashing into
each other upon their return to Britain, as well as cases of
bombers being lost in the English Channel.

"As we got back to our base, two of the planes
in our group crashed into each other and blew up.
It was an unbelievable sight. I saw the planes ex-
plode right off our left wing and then hit the ground.
No one got out alive. The weather was plenty rough
when coming in. We lost another plane in the channel."

The Experience of War in Nazi Airspace, by someone who was there

 

I wonder if there were any accidental shootings during air to air target practice.

 

1 July 1942
Squadron Leader R. W. 'Bobby' Oxspring was an eyewitness to the destruction of Spitfire AB806 and he nearly met the same end:

" ... Stung into retaliation by our relentless offensive, the Luftwaffe resorted to sneak raids on our south coast towns and ports ... In the Biggin Hill sector these raids concerned 91 Squadron more than others because of our disposition on the south coast. Despite this, our success at intercepting these raids was practically nil and caused us much frustration. I flew up to Biggin Hill and took my worries to the sector commander, Dicky Barwell was as concerned as I was and we had a long discussion with the senior controller, Bill Igoe. Ultimately Dicky suggested that with Bill controlling he would accompany me on a standing patrol the same evening to try to assess first-hand what the problems were.
We took off from Biggin Hill an hour before sunset and patrolled just off the coast between Dungeness and Beachy Head. There was a very thick haze up to 16,000 feet and we were stationed just above it. As we approached Beachy, Bill warned us of unidentified plots in our vicinity and we peered into the haze for signs of activity. Suddenly I sighted two fighters approaching us out of the glare of the setting sun and gave a warning to Dicky who was abreast of me and nearer to them. The leading fighter, which flew close over the top of me, I identified as a Spitfire and called the fact to Dicky. I watched as it faded to my rear and then turned back to see the second aircraft, another Spit, behind Dicky and already opening fire on him.
Calling an urgent break to Dicky I flew on a collision course at his attacker and succeeded in distracting him enough to force a break-away. I turned back to close over the top of Dicky, whose aircraft was flaming from the petrol tank, and I could see him desperately trying to open the canopy to bale out. I glanced back to see the first Spit swinging in behind me and opening fire. I broke hard round and down into the haze to shake him off, but search as I might I could see no sign of Dicky. My frantic calls to him bore no response and I circled down through the murk to the Channel. All I could find was what I took to be and oil slick on the surface, but there was no sign of either a parachute or a dinghy.
I flew despondently back to Biggin Hill to report the tragedy. Despite intensive air sea rescue searches, no trace of Dicky was ever found. I felt awful about it and somehow responsible for losing a gallant officer. No blame could be apportioned to Bill Igoe's control organization; they did their job. It is significant, however, that the subsequent Court of Inquiry revealed that the two Spitfires which caused the calamity came from an Allied squadron in the Tangmere sector and that, incredibly, one pilot was on his first operational mission sortie and the leader on his second.
So died a superb commander in the most deplorable circumstances. With his body still strapped in plaster to protect his cracked vertebrae, Dicky probably found it too severe a handicap either to abandon his aircraft or even to jettison the canopy. But being the man he was he would have been the first to forgive the trigger-happy Tangmere pilots who, itching to claim their first Hun, couldn't tell the difference between a Messerschmitt and a Spitfire..."
See p.106-108, Oxspring, Robert Wardlow. Spitfire Command (London: Kimber, 1984).

 

Not exactly Air to Air. But an interesting read anyway .

Amicicide: the problem of friendly fire in modern war