German Victory: Thousand Year Reich's Alt. Op. Plan

1. The point is, Rumania could build viable combat aircraft which could still perform as well as most other fighters avaliable on the market at the time. While this is not true for dedicated fightercraft or interceptors, it is the case for ground-support or ground-attack aircraft, which is what the IAR-80 was primarily outfitted for.
My point wasnt if they could, but how little, the veritable drop in the bucket

2. A German annexation of Rumania is not a contengincy we must consider. The chief question here is the viability of Rumania's army and capabilities. Neither simply cease to be even if Antonescu's regimé does.
Seems relevent to me if the Germans thought it was

3. According to 'Strategy & Tactics', the rights for licenscing were time and again withheld purposefully, often at Hitler's own insistence.
Because they couldnt build what they wanted to buy without witholding/subverting resources Germans. IMHO, it was a good idea. How many could they have built anyway?
200?

4. Rumania could still have aquired the materials, which by then, Italy nor the British would demand. Costs would be far inferrior to those during the Second World War, and therefore, Bucharesti, with large amounts of cash on hand thanks to their oil industry, could afford to make such mass purchases during the short-term.
WWII was a war of attrition, materials used by Romania couldnt be used by Germany

5. There were still skilled workers in the Rumanian area. If there was reason to send these to work domestically, they would be regulated to such jobs.
Many/Most went to Germany, Czech.

6. To counter your argument:

1) By 1939, 80% of Rumania's economy was in German hands. 40% of its agriculture, 20% of its viable industry, and 33% of its total population were siezed when Bessarabia, the southern Dobruja, Wallachia, and Moldavia fell to Soviet, Bulgarian, or Hungarian demands. Yet Rumania's industry, during the war, produced the IAR-80, hundreds of German fighters, and their own tank destroyer late during Barbarossa.
And look at the good it did them. During the entire war Romania failed to come close let alone equal a single month of US production, of anything. INSIGNIFICANT.

2) Rumania had been working on the IAR-80 since prior to 1939.
And she was one helluva craft for all that work

3) The Turan was a modified copy of Czech tankettes, correct. Yet if it was indeed that cheap, why could Rumania - with vast income from Ploesti and little else to spend it on - not purchase the rights?
Not tankette copy, light tank copy. Again, could Romania build them without subverting resources better used elsewhere? Romania was allowed to purchase vehicles, see Gemini's post at OnWar(great post btw, he found quite a bit of info)

 

1. The point of the matter is, Rumania was able to build a potent aircraft which made its name as a ground-support weapon. The IAR, for all your statements against it, performed well. Rumania also produced hundreds of front-line German fighters during the war.

2. Our issue is the Rumanian army and its capabilities. A German occupation would not suddenly alter any of these.

3. The Hungarians didn't build anything near the number necessary with the own Turan. It did subvert German resources, however. Why not extend the same privledge to Rumania?

4. Again, Hungary was given "minor" gifts in German eyes, for far less sacrifice or effort.

5. Once more, Rumanian workers would stay in Rumania during a war with the Soviets, esp. where transport and logistic are concerned.

6. Again ...

1) We are not comparing Rumania to the USA, which is at least one hundred ties their superior.

2) My point still stands. Rumania developed something approaching a modern aircraft even with nearly half its industry under Soviet control or in ruins.

3) And Hungary could afford to flagrantly waste German resources on the 'Turan', which would have been just as 'worthless' even in their hands. Remember, Rumanian armored troops had been German-trained even before the war. If anything, Gemini's post backs my argument. Hitler withheld items from them which would not have taxed Germany at all to provide. I don't see where your argument is going besides: "Rumania didn't do any of the things you said it didn't do."

 

All I am trying to point out that Romania and Romanian troops were so insignificant, they hold little value. Volkssturm, and other rear echelon units could have performed the function of the few hundred thousand Romanians. Sure, they fought, just not in any numbers that could effect the war at large.

 

And my point - derived from articles written by a magazine which bases its articles on campaign and strategy - is that the Rumanian nation contributed far more than any other Axis ally to Germany's cause on the Russian front.

Rumania contributed more men than any other Axis ally of Germany on that front. Finland made no great gains and often refused to overstep previous territorial lines. The Hungarians and Italians are oft neglected, but then again, little is written even of their triumphs. Slovakian troops were placed behind the lines. Spanish forces often evaporated. Rumania, however, helped to sieze Odessa, the Ukraine, and the Crimea. Rumanian oil kept Germany in the war.

 

All of Germany's allies were of little use because of her failure to supply them. Had Germany the production to supply its allies with top notch gear, and bring those formation's on par with German levels, the war may have gone different.
One major difference separating the two sides in the war was each sides willingness to supply their allies. The US supplied the UK and Russia with whatever they could, no charge. The UK gave away all they could spare, for free. The Germans charged their allies for stuff they couldn’t even use. The Germans warehoused competent French aircraft and aircraft parts while their allies were scraping the barrel for everything that could get aloft. Then parceled them out over the next few years for outrageous fees.
In July ’40 the Germans inventoried all their captured French gear. They had something around 1,500 French aircraft engines, in running order, which they sat on, using them on bizarre projects like the Gigant, or just letting them rot. What kind of difference could these have made in the hands of their allies? Something on the order of 5-600 French tanks in either running, or easily repaired order were in German hands. Italy received about 50, Finland got less than Italy about 25, 200-250 were taken into German service and the rest were warehoused in France. In ’44 these came in handy, around 100 being retrofitted as SP guns usually armed with 75mm AT guns and used against the Western Allies. Again, how useful would they have been in the hands of Germany’s allies in ’41 if Hungarian and Romanian forces had 200 French tanks given to them?
Had Germany been able to reconcile the Nazi’s and profiteering industry giants, and German production reached decent levels, they could have supplied their allies with trucks, tanks, etc. But because German production levels were so low, especially early in the war, they couldn’t afford to lose anything, and when they did they tried to get top dollar for it, from allies!!!!!

[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: talleyrand ]