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graf spee

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by me262 phpbb3, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. me262 phpbb3

    me262 phpbb3 New Member

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  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf New Member

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    I always felt a quite sorry for the German Captain - he appears to have been a true gentleman. The movie was also very sympathetic to him.

    It must be said, though, that it was a very good win for the British - three cruisers which could, potentally, have all been beaten up by the pocket battleship forced it to turn tail and head for a neutral harbour. Then British Intelligence's brilliant coup de gras in conning the Germans into believing that they had no hope of escape - thoroughly outsmarting the master race in an important blow early in the war.

    PS. Let's not forget Achilles was a Kiwi - fully integrated with the RN, of course, but worth remembering.
     
  3. me262 phpbb3

    me262 phpbb3 New Member

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    indeed , capt langdorf was a true gentleman, he choose to scuttle his ship rather than hurt his crew
     
  4. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    A true gentleman, yes; and that does mean much. But he didn't fight his ship very well, IMHO. The British cruisers were handled very skilfully, of course, but GRAF SPEE should have been able to beat them off, if not sink them outright, given how badly she outgunned the three of them.
     
  5. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    It can be very hard to beat off three cruisers which have that great speed advantage (they can dictate range at will). And looking other numbers: three cruisers, displacing over 22000 tons vs 1 cruiser, displacing 12000 tons isn't going to favour single ship. Guns: 6x8", 16x6" vs 6x11" and 8x5,9" isnt that much favour on AGS. Could AGS even use all of its 5,9" guns all the time?

    Sure, AGS was more than a match to any single british light or heavy cruiser but against three much faster ships? No way unless getting some early, lucky hits which disable one opponent.
     
  6. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    Notmi i've been reading an interesting topic about this event in History but i came to the conclusion (or atleast it is giving me the idea) the Graf Spee should have and could have won even dictate the dual between it and the 3 cruisers!

    http://bismarck-class-forum.dk/thread.php?threadid=3059
     
  7. me262 phpbb3

    me262 phpbb3 New Member

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    remember that one of the ca, was badlly mauled, almost sunk by the graf spee
     
  8. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    The cost of being a high-seas raider are steep. By the time GS ran into the Allied cruisers, her top speed was just 24 knots. Her forward turret was in dire need of servicing, which explains why it went out of action during the fight. She had better armor than any of her opponents, but with all the shells flying her way, the soft-kill effects began piling up, including damage to her FC systems which cut down on her firepower advantage.
     
  9. Ebar

    Ebar New Member

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    Well I'd say GS core problem was that she was built to a political rather than military specification. If you wanted a good surface raider then an oil powered version of the WW1 german cruiser Emeden was probably the way to go. However even that doesn't solve the problem that by the start of WW2 the end of the surface raider was hoving into view. Since aircraft, radar and a large proportion of merchantmen having radios, meant that it was being impossible for the raider to remain undetected.
     
  10. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    But it should be remembered that the pocket battleships entered service in 1928, IIRC. At that time, radar did not exist and many, if not most, merchantmen still did not have radios. And aircraft had not developed very much since WW1. By the standards of that time period, then, GRAF SPEE and her sisters weren't a bad design, although I would have gone for a more reliable oil fired powerplant instead of the diesels.
     
  11. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    The pocket battleships entered service in 1933, 1934, and 1936.
    If you gave them turbine engines, you'd lose probably half their range, so they're no longer the long-range raiders they were meant to be.
     
  12. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    1928 was when the first was either ordered or laid down, then; my mistake. Still, their diesels were so unreliable that the ships never fully realized their potential (Hitler's idiotic orders didn't help any, either).
     
  13. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    The diesels were more reliable than German turbine engines, generally speaking, but there were problems. As I recall, the MAN technicians told the navy that the diesels needed a certain foundation, but the navy ignored the advice and opted for lesser support. The result was significant vibration at some speeds, and this came back to bite Graf Spee as she accelerated to battle speed off River Plate.
     
  14. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    Definitely not one of the Kriegsmarine's better decisions. :roll:
     

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