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Holocaust-US did not do enough

Discussion in 'Concentration, Death Camps and Crimes Against Huma' started by bronk7, May 8, 2020.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    https://www.friends-amis.org/index....earch-papers/15-world-war-ii-conferences/file

    The BIG three were talking about making Germany an agricultural piece of land, unconditional surrender, killing some 50,000 German officers. Personally I see this a major reason why the soldiers and people kept on fighting as long as it was possible. Still in January 1945 the German borders were almost the same as when the WW2 started.

    Casablanca: Roosevelt and Churchill also found time to discuss nuclear bomb research, to consider competing claims between Henri Giraud and Charles de Gaulle for the leadership of the French war effort against the Axis powers, and, most important of all, to demand an ―unconditional surrender‖ from Germany, Italy, and Japan.

    Both the announcement and the policy of unconditional surrender were severely criticized after the war, when it was contended that opposition groups in Germany might have overthrown Adolf Hitler and negotiated an earlier peace if the German military had not been alarmed and galvanized by the prospectof Allied vindictiveness.Ten months before Casablanca, Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi Propaganda Minister,had written in his diary, “The more the English prophesy a disgraceful peace for Germany, the easier it is for me to toughen and harden German resistance.”The Casablanca Conference provided him with a powerful propaganda weapon."

    Stalin to Churchill – ‘Let’s shoot top 50,000 Germans’

    29th November 1943: Stalin to Churchill – ‘Let’s shoot top 50,000 Germans’

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    Many German soldiers after having seen the destruction of their cities and their dead relatives were eager to return to the front because they had no families and wanted to revenge because of this. Holocaust or invading countries meant nothing anymore even I am sure they knew this and many regretted the racial policy. They were doomed anyway according to FDR speech and their country would be turned into a potato field.

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    Operation Keelhaul- I believe Stalin had his 50 000+ dead, although Cossacks and Soviets who escaped the communist revolution.And 21,000+ Polish officers in Katyn, of which Boris Jelsin gave documents to Lech Walesa as the USSR crumbled.

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  2. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    I can not entirely buy the argument that Allied comments dramatically prolonged the war and otherwise senior commanders would have forced/accepted a separate peace. There were grumbles even before the war began, but senior leadership seemed more interested in dissidents with good taste rather than those who tasted good and arguing about a post coup government than actually getting on with the job.

    Nor is there any reason for the average German officer to truly know what the Allies intended or contemplated doing. Yes the Allies called for unconditional surrender and German propaganda expounded on this, but is this really any different than what Germany had done with the nations they were at war with? Then also German officers/troops had a decades worth of examples from their own government that what they say/promise is often different from what they actually do.

    Further German troops fully understood the need to appear remorseless and ruthless when prosecuting a war. They put sirens on dive bombers, attacked columns of fleeing civilians, sank passenger liners and indiscriminately bombed urban centers all to create a sense of fear and doom. The Allies simply did this with greater efficiency and after German first use.

    Finally after several years of war, they might not have known everything done in the Holocaust in their name, they marched past enough burning cities/villages, past displays of hanged civilians, past train/truck loads of stolen food/supplies to have no illusion that those who had this done to them would not be just as 'merciful' in return.

    Bottom line nothing the allies said/did seems to have stopped German officers/troops from surrendering when a position became untenable, even on the eastern front. Whatever might be said about German arms the rank and file officers and men probably saw themselves as German patriots in the same way Allied/Soviet soldiers did in defense of their homeland.
     
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  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The early 1000 plane raids were a joke. First, they were not 1000 planes, but it makes for good propaganda. Second, they had to get 1000 pilots, so they took them from where ever they could find them - trainees, transport pilots, basically any one that could fly a plane. Third, the results were not comparable to the effort expended - the first 100p plane raid on Cologne killed less than 500 people and damage was minimal. Fourth, the lack of trained crews led to many planes not even bombing the city, but well away from the city.

    The British, like the Germans, grossly overestimated the effect on civilian morale. The Germans, like the British, hunkered down and carried on. The German bombing of British cities did not reinforce any resistance to Churchill, nor lead to his overthrow. It was much the same with the Germans and Hitler. German resistance to Hitler was for various other reasons, mostly all predating the war and bombings.

    They wanted to get rid of Hitler before the war & bombing...There were about 17-19 attempts on Hitler's life throughout his tenure. These attempts did not shorten the war, because they all failed. The only real attempt at Hitler's overthrow came when the war had already decidedly turned against Germany. So no, it did not shorten the war.

    Hamburg occurred over a year after Bomber Harris took control of Bomber Command. Even longer after the British knew their daylight bombing campaign was an abject failure.

    Yes, it had such a major effect on moral that Germany immediately sued for peace...Oh wait...That didn't happen. It had such a major effect that German production dropped dramatically...Oh wait...That did not happen either.

    The bombing of Germany hardly strengthened and emboldened resistance/Partisans/etc. What does the Maquis care in Hamburg has been bombed, as it does nothing if immediate consequence for them. Much the same for the other resistance movements.

    Strategic bombing weakened the will of less ardent supporters. The more ardent supporters wanted revenge - the opposite effect.

    Italians were hardly ardent supporters of the Nazis. There will was broken by more pragmatic issues - they could not adequately defend their country against Allied invasion and their citizens were facing starvation(the average Italian civilian adult was getting about 1/3rd the rations of the average German adult). Indeed, the Italian Royalty sought surrender terms before the bombing of Italy really began.

    Guess what Italy's surrender lengthened the war, not shortened it. Before the surrender, Italy had been nothing but a drain on German resources. After Italy's surrender and the German takeover, the Germans found the treasure trove that Italian industrialist had been hoarding. Tens of thousands of tons was shipped back to German factories. While the rest was dumped back into the German organized Italian industry that quickly began supplying Germany with war material. Not to mention the 600,000+ Italian POWs sent to Germany to do forced labor.
     
  4. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    No German resistance occurred after the unconditional surrender, in comparison with other conquered territories (Poland, Yugoslavia) that was a shocking development.
    It proves that the Germans merely obediently followed orders but didn't want more war, and Goebbels's propaganda efforts had nothing to do with it.
    During the Great War, the Germans fought to the end too - till their economy collapsed, despite the fact, nobody demanded unconditional surrender.

    The German anti-Nazi resistance had its chance and blew it, nothing external could have improved their ineptness.

    In Nuremberg, the top German generals usually said they fought to the end because their honor didn't allow them to betray Hitler and Germany, they didn't mention unconditional surrender.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Still the German resistance was surprisringly strong incl the Ardennes counter,. or the January 1st massive plane attack. The Reich area was still close to normall German area in Jan 1945. Also there were the Kurland troops which were aimed to attack the Soviet troops in the rear. Or the sad March SS attack in Hungary ( operation spring awakwning) just loosing the final reserves in operations.

    The werewolf plan was Göbbels´poor idea that never worked.
     
  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    These were not "resistance", so much as they were "Hail Mary Passes". The Germans could have resisted far more effectively on the defensive, as opposed to throwing away their forces in desperation attacks that had next to no chance of success.
     

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