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How much did they know?

Discussion in 'World War 2' started by P5, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. merlin phpbb3

    merlin phpbb3 New Member

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    post subject

    And the topic is? "What did they know?" Who are these 'ordinary' Germans being mentioned?
     
  2. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Re: post subject

    For somebody who hotly complains about snide comments made about the USA this is a remarkably odd statement to be making.

    In a handful of European countries (two?) it is currently illegal to deny that the Holocaust actually happened, which is very very different to your statement, which asserts that in 'Europe' discussing whether Dachau was a death camp or a concentration camp will automatically land you in jail.
     
  3. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    Re: post subject


    My previous statement was correct..France and Germany are in Europe...and it is illegal there to deny the holocaust. I didn't say in all europe or throughout europe, though you interpreted it that way.

    Perhaps you missed the recent reports about Germany attempting to get the rest of the EU to adopt the same measures?
    France and germany today. Tomorrow the EU? :D
     
  4. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    Denying the Holocaust is also illegal in the Checz Republic, Lithuania, Austria (which David Irving learnt the hard way last year), Spain, Poland, Slovakia, Belgium, The Netherlands, Romania and Belgium, however not all countries will punish a violation with prison sentences and there are differences as to exactly what is covered by the laws. Discussing the formal designation of a specific camp is widely different from denying that people were actually killed there (or playing down the importance of those who did die to natural causes).
     
  5. merlin phpbb3

    merlin phpbb3 New Member

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    post subject

    This thread was nothing to do with 'Denying the Holocaust', the question asked was "how much did the know".
    Some people make it seem that Dachau, Belsen etc. are in a 'different league' to Treblinka and Auschwitz, it's nothing to do with ONLY 30,000 odd at the 'Concentration Camps' and Millions at the 'Extermination' camps, 30,000 is a lot of dead bodies, as my late mate George Illife, Royal Engineers would have told you, he never forgot bulldozing rotting bodies into pits at Belsen. They Knew!
     
  6. Tom phpbb3

    Tom phpbb3 New Member

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    Grieg, I don't believe that asking specifics about the operations of a camp falls under the heading of "Holocaust denial." Arguing vociferously that nobody was killed there, maybe, but whether or not it was a death camp shouldn't be an issue. Of course, as Merlin pointed out, it is a little off topic for the thread.
     
  7. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    Asking, perhaps not. What if you have information that in your opinion indicates that is was not a death camp and the official government line is that it was? That could be construed as holocaust denial by some.


    topic subject:
    It is relevant to the topic being discussed here because if there were no death camps on German soil then it is less likely that most German people would have been aware of the existence of death camps.
     
  8. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Re: post subject

    I read your reply with a very raised eyebrow... ;)

    But anyway, back to the topic at hand.



    Just to make it clear, my post was a personal one, with no relation to my Admin position. I even flagged up to my fellow Admin / Mods that I had made a potentially aggrevating post and asked them to keep an impartial eye on things.
     
  9. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    Re: post subject

    No worries, mate. IMO you and Simon are the most even-handed, thoughtful posters on this forum. Even when we disagree. I envy the way you keep your ego under control even when you apparently disagree strongly. But enough of this love fest and back to topic :D
    My comments made with a disparaging note regarding Europe in this thread have less to do with American nationalism and more to do with my Libertarian philosophy. When the state makes it a crime to disagree with their position I'm always going to have a problem with that, to put it mildly.
     
  10. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Re: post subject

    awww, thanks Grieg - you've made me blush... :oops:
    I tend to find that if I actually get annoyed, leave it for long enough to calm down and start thinking of a more rational answer, that works well for me. Mind you, I'm generally quite thick-skinned to start with :D


    Well, I do agree with your position there, though I do acknowledge that it can be tricky when things like '[ethnic group x] is evil, kill all [ethnic group x]' get said.
    However, as a European whose country does not jail people for asking tricky questions about history... ;) :D

    Ok, subject closed - I love you, you love me, we broadly agree, everybody is happy :D
     
  11. merlin phpbb3

    merlin phpbb3 New Member

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    post subject

    As this thread seems not to be going anywhere this will be my last post on it.
    By a coincidence the following letter was published in my local paper last night (Thursday Feb 1st.), it comments on a report previously printed in paper, maybe you will find it of interest.
    Death camp was not Polish.
    'You report that the pupils at Welland Park Community College had a talk about the Holocaust and that the speaker Mr Josef Perl, a Slovac had been himself a prisioner in the Polish death camp, Auschwitz(Mercury Jan.22nd)
    If indeed he used the expression "Polish death camp" the pupils have been taught in correctly and it is a distortion of history.
    This most ignominous place of mass murder was never Polish.
    After unwarranted German invasion of Poland and annexation of Polish land the extermination camp, which was established by Reichsfürer SS Heinrich Himmler, was named Auschwitz/Birkenau (Polish name Oswiecim/Brzezinka.) To suggest that the Polish had anything to do with its origins as a killing factory is a most hurtful insult to the Polish nation.
    Over a millionn Jews, as well as hundreds of thousands of Poles,Romanies and people of other nations, died at this camp.
    The Camp is a registered Unesco world heritage site since 1979 and last year the Polish Government requested the United Nations Committee to change the registered name of the site from "Auschwitz Concentration Camp" to "Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz/Birkenau"
    to ensure that younger generations understand clearly what this camp was.
    Kazia Malinska- Myers, Leicester.[/i]
     
  12. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    Re: post subject

    Seems a bit unnecessary to me. Did anyone actually think that the Poles set up the camps in Poland after being defeated by the Germans?
     
  13. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    How much did they know?
    Even if it could be answered accurately the answer to that question would depend upon the definition of "they". I assume that the poster is referring to the German people rather than the SS or the Gestapo or the government. If that is the case it is problematic because we are talking about ~80 million people who lived under a repressive regime and without the open and free mass communications that we take for granted. Word of mouth would be the most widespread form of non-state approved communication.
     
  14. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

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    I'm constantly amazed that--even given the internet--"word-of-mouth" is capable of spreading information--or misinformation--as quickly as any electronic means.
    I have to agree with Merlin on this one. How could they NOT know? Even taking the repressive nature of Nazism into consideration, EVERY city and town was aware of the penalty for harboring Jews or any individual considered an enemy of the state. I find it nigh impossible to believe the average german citizen was clueless to what was going on around them relating to the "Jewish problem" and the States ultimate solution.
    It was simply convienient for many to deny that fact... as it no-doubt conflicted with any individuals' morality, to deny the existance of such a monsterous, murderous policy so eagerly executed by the Third Reich.
    As far as German citizens in proximity to these "death-camps"... the smell alone would be difficult to ignore. (Something akin to living downwind from a commerical hog-lot I imagine.) We're talking a stench you can TASTE when the wind is right.
    Oblivious? I think not.

    Tim
     
  15. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    Then surely word of mouth must have alerted nearly all Americans to the Manhattan Project, right? Literally hundreds of thousands of people were involved at one level or another form White Sands NM to Oak Ridge TN to University of Chicago and other American universities. How can something that large and involving that many people be kept so secret?

    Also, knowing that Jews were being persecuted and imprisoned is not the same as knowing that Jews were being exterminated. How many death camps were there and what was their proximity to the majority of Germans? I don't see how we can determine that they must have known without answering these questions.
     
  16. Canadian_Super_Patriot

    Canadian_Super_Patriot recruit

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    What about rural people ? Surely , a lot of them must not have known about the camps ? What about the people who were too young to really know about the situation ? Plus, even if they knew , what could they do ? Like seriously ?
     
  17. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

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    Grieg:
    The Manhattan Project was one of the best-kept and tightly-guarded secrets of all time.
    I imagine the security was such that anyone even SUSPECTED of being "loose-lipped" was instantly transferred to the Aleutians... or most probably interred in a mental-hospital under solitary confinement for the duration of the war.
    I also seriously doubt the average American could wrap his/her brain around the concept of nuclear-fission... and a bomb of such devastating proportions. They may have suspected "something big" was going-on, but past that it was simply unimaginable for the average person to fathom. Also, recall that Oppenheimer and staff were based out in the desert far away from any real population-centers.
    My .02 cents.

    Tim
     
  18. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Re: post subject

    With all due respect to the experiences of your late friend, I don't follow the argument of your post. How does the extent of the average German's knowledge of the genocide follow from the horrid memories of those who had to clean up the camps?

    In reality, as has been stated above, I don't think it made much difference whether or not a camp was a designated extermination camp or "just" a concentration camp, at least when it comes to what normal people knew about it. In both cases, thousands upon thousands of people were killed in these camps, and others constantly brought in by cattle wagon. How could it have escaped the attention of the locals?

    On another note, Sachsenhausen, a camp just north of Berlin, was designated a labour camp, but it did have a gas chamber.

    A flawed analogy, I think, because the Manhattan Project did not make millions of people disappear. Also, its activity was not on as large a scale, or in as small and populated a region, as the German genocidal projects, which spanned thousands of camps dotted all over an area smaller than most single US states.

    In answer to your question, the major extermination camps (Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Maydanek) were all in eastern or southern Poland.
     
  19. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Re: post subject

    Sadly not - I know far too many people who would hear/see the words 'Polish death camp' and think "Oh, them nasty Poles, they're just as bad as that horrible German guy..."

    :roll:

    I am in favour of making things as clear as possible, though the suggested title is possibly a little long!
     
  20. majorwoody10

    majorwoody10 New Member

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    before we get to sweaty about the honour of the poles in regards to the holocaust, try to remember that in all of occupied europe there was never a shortage of locals quite happy to point out ,and even help track down any and all hideing jews ( some even turned out armed militias to help with the shooting and disposal )...in poland ,ukraine,the baltic states ,russia ,france and holland jews were often quickly identified by neighbors ,workmates and school chums ... only the nordic countries refused to complie with nazi edicts about helping to round up the jews . the flight of the jews to palistine to escape all too frequent brutal pogroms in mostly eastern europe started long before hitler came to power ...also it might amaze you to hear that some 20 or 30% of americans KNOW that the cia introduced crack cocaine to black neiborhoods ,that gw bush is behind the 911 attacks and the apollo moon landings were all a govt hoax and shot entirely in a movie studio ...what passes for general knowlege today in america is enough to make a grown man weep...did all 80 million germans know about the gas chambers ? dont be ridiculous ..there isnt now nor has there ever been a place where ALL the people ever know anything for certain ...when its a state secret in a police state they tend to know even less..
     

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