Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by Erich, Jan 9, 2003.
Eindhoven? Not Utrecht?
I know it doesn;'t make sense but as we have all siad with what references availbel this can all be tedious. Talking with Oskar, he mentioned an IP where the JG 3 unit turned and then it split up and attacked 2 maybe even three airfields. So depending on the book/web-site reference it could have been right after the IP at Utrecht on the way to Eindhoven ? I will await Colin ford's reply by next week and if I do not hear from him I will put a bug in his ear to do so. Then we can have an official 268th sqnd viewpoint....hopefully !
My book has a Allied map on the German Flight movements on Jan 1, 1945 and there is clearly a LARGE IP over Utrecht/Spakenburg. Will scan, will e-mail....
Eindhoven? Hardly any IP.....
Yes it has to be Utrecht as at least 4 Jagdgeschwaders turned in this area to their so called designated targets. Interesting too that one units Ju 88G pathfinders got them totally lost and took the wrong bearings and led them over empty airfields and just when the Allied fighters were returning to base. The Luftwaffe unit suffered accordingly. Please send the maps by e-mail, that would be great. My German ones are terrible and hard to read as one has 4 units drawn over one another. How a person can make this out is beyond my comprehension. Artist should of been shot !
Gotta run on some business so be back in 4 hours or so.....uk !
Sorry if this seems a dumb question, but whats an IP
I'm so stinking tired this probably won;t make any sense. So I rest upon the intelligent of the board to help me.
Redcoat : IP would mean initial point and was usualy a landmark such as mountain, town/village where in this case the fighter formation would make a turn to the left or right. My thoughts that it may have been JG 3 have changed as they were far from Utrecht, but I need to dig more to find the other possible unit.......JG 26 ?
In the book "Battle of the Airfields, Operation Bodenplatte" It shows a map of the routes taken by the various Jagdgeschwader.
It shows that the route taken by JG 3 in its attack on Eindhoven was directly from the east, and indeed nowhere near Utrecht.
However a number of JGs did fly over Utrecht before turning south to attack, Eindhoven,Volkel and a number of other airfields, some as far as Belgium.
Both JG 27 and JG 6 flew in a westerly direction until reaching Utrecht and then turned south to attack the airfields of Melsbroek, and Glize-Rijen in the case of JG 27, and the airfields of Heesch, Volkel and Eindhoven by JG 6.
JG 1 and JG 26 also flew over Utrecht but they travelled further west reaching the coast before turning south to attack the airfields of Maldeghem, Ursel and St Denijs Westrem in the case of JG 1 and in the case of JG 26 Grimbergen,and Evere.
It also appears that there was confusion among the attackers and that a number of aircraft did mill around the Utrecht area for a while looking for their targets.
Sorry if this only makes things worse
[ 15. January 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]
Its me again
This book I keep quoting, while it lists all the German Fighter losses,and what unit they were from, it fails to list the loss of this pathfinder aircraft and its unit, even though its mentioned in the main part of the book
Achtung ! Received the missions report on Mercer and his wingman from Colin Ford. Will post shortly......adding to the already confusion that is still arising for the 1-1-45 mission.
Ah! Sweet! What is a researcher to do without
TAC/R Hertogenbosch-Schoonhoven-Langeraar-Hilversum-Leuwen. 268th combat report......
very little seen on ground. 3 Ju 88's escorted by five me 109's flying east over Utrecht at zero feet, 0915 hrs. One Ju 188 attacked and destroyed by No. 1. One of a number of Fw 190's in Eindhoven area attacked and claimed damaged by No. 2- strikes seen.
time up and down.....0832-1020
time of attack.......0915-0945
place of attack......Utrecht area
height of first sighting..... zero feet
own height on first sighting..8000 feet
enemey casualties....1 Ju 188 destroyed(Ju 88G-6)
On 1st January 45 whilst flying a Tac/R mission as No. 1 to Fl/Lt Lyke, I saw some enemy a/c moving east from Utrecht. They were 3 Ju 188's with an escort of 5 Me 109's. I reported them to Longbow and then went down to attack. I selected the rear Ju 188 which had one fighter on it'sport side. I opened fired from dead astern at about 500 yds. and closed to 100 yds, observing strikes on the tail and the fusleage, and then the starboard engine which caught fire and burnt fiercely. My No. 2 attacked after I had broken away and claimed hits in the tail. The enemy a/c flew on straight for a few moments and then crashed in a wood at approx. E.3289. We observed him to break into flames, and thick black smoke arose from the spot which we could still see rising when we crossed the bomb line near s'Hertogenbosch. We then had a report of bandits from base. We made for some thick black smoke which turned out to be Eindhoven and there got split up.
I attacked one Fw 190 whcih had a bomb slung under the fuselage, and pressed the trigger at 200yds. range. Unfortunately all my ammo had been expended and I had to break off the attack at about 100yds. I was closing in fast having dived from 5,000 feet to zero ft. The enemy a/c took no evasive action whatever and was a sitting target. I chased three more Fw 190's and they all seemed very keen to get away. flying a 0 ft, none of them tried to get into combat whcih was very forunate for me having no ammo left. There seemed to be no co-operation between the enemy a/c and all seemed to go off individually.
Ft/Lt. J.B. Lyke
Flying on a Tac/R in the area of Utrecht with Ft/Lt. Mercer as No. 1. Mercer reported enemy a/c over Utrecht, this was reported to Longbow. We waited for the enemey a/c to get clear of Utrecht then went into a line astern attack. Mercer attacked the Ju 188 first, setting the starboard engine on fire. I then closed in immediately after Mercer, giving a 2 second burst and saw strikes on the tail. The enemy a/c crashed in the vicinty of Zeist. We then proceeded to base when a bandit call was given by Flying control. We saw considerable activity in the vicinity of an aerodrome, this was Eindhoven. We were then at 6,000ft. I got broken up from my No. 1 and spotted an a/c moving in an easterly direction from Eindhoven, closed in and saw it was a Fw 190, so opened up at 400yds giving the a/c a 1 sec. burst. The a/c then did some mild evasive action and then continued a straight course. I then gave it another 1 sec. burst and saw a piece fly off the Fw 190 around the cockpit.
315 rounds expended, claimed 1 Fw 190 damaged.
Excellent stuff Erich....Great to see all this bits and pieces come together....
Hope to be able to contribute to this later also!
so Stevin does this encounter then look to you as being close to Utrecht or Holk ? Although it does not mention how the Ju 88G-6 near Utrecht was downed and the Holk a/c was shot down by AA or so the losses book say it does....
Well, Ft/Lt. J.B. Lyke writes the plane went down near ZEIST, which lies about 5 Km east of Utrecht. Holk is about 15 - 20 Km NorthEast of Utrecht.The number of crashes and locations start to mount. My guess is that several planes went down 'near Utrecht'. Of two we have more specific area's (Zeist and Holk).
I haven't found anything on a crash near Zeist. Search continues.
What losses book are you talking about here, Erich? I am kinda : I assumed that mercer downed the Holk Ju88, but Lykes said it crashed near Zeist, which is some distance away. The Ju88 crash is clearly descibed above.AND AFAIK it was the only Ju88 to go down in that area anyway....
Hope to get the 1-1-45 stuff from my book ready for you soon. It does describes that besides Mercer and Lykes, also an attack in the Utrecht area was made by F/L's Young and Packwood of No. 2 Sqn RAF, also based at Gilze Rijen. Packwood downed a Bf109 in roughly the same area. Several other German planes were downed by their own Flak. This book doens't determine which German a/c was downed by either Mercer or Packwood. All it says that JG27 lost at least 3 Bf109s and 9/NJG1 lost one Ju88 in the Utrecht area.
[ 21. January 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]
I just checked Ring and Girbig's JAGDGESCHWADER 27 by Motorbuch, but nada. Bodenplatten is mentioned...maybe one page and nothing of interest is mentioned before the angriff on Melsbroek....
Pretty strange...You would think they give this Unternehmen more attention...
They do have a list of pilots lost on this mission. Will include that in my 'Bodenplatten' mail!
[ 21. January 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]
Do I dare confirm the one 9./NJG 1 bird as shot down near Utrecht by Mercer and Lykes ? I suppose so as the Holk machine was downed by AA.....or so Michael Balss night fighter losses book accounts for. The book has minor mistakes through out like mis named crewmen and wrong coeds and even wrong German a/c lost. So if I understand the report and what you are saying the 3 Ju 88G-6's of NJG 1 led JG 27 Bf 109G variants and then Mercer.Lyke moved off once the kill was confirmed to check on Eindhoven where JG 3 was putting the airfield to fire......correct so far ?
This Bodenplatte raid is still so confusing
That is what I gather so far.... Only one Ju88 was shot down/crashed 'near Utrecht', and Lykes and Mercer were talking about a Ju188 (which turned out a Ju88). All other German a/c going down in the Utrecht area were Bf109s....So I assume we can credit Mercer with the Ju88....so far....BTW I have in my head that that Ju88 came down near Holk...The Holk plane should be a Bf109 then, right?
After the shoot down, Mercer was out of ammo (trying to down a Fw190...no mention of 109s!). They flew South and observed the strafing of Eindhoven by JG3 and Lykes went on to damage a Fw190 there....While flying back to Gilze Rijen, they were advised that that airfield was under attack too....
Damn...where is Ron and John's book when you need it....?
I don't have a time for the other Ju 88G-6 downing at Holk so I cannot say whether this was enroute to the target or had the two remaining night fighters banked away and were returning to base ? Yes there was definately 1 Ju 88G-6 lost over or near Holk by AA fire but not sure if Allied or German.......yes where is R/J book !!!
Utrecht and vicinity was still in German hands then, the frontline was way to the south, so German AA, is my guess.
Hopefully can mail you the pics tonite...
OK, TWO Ju-88's: One Near ZEIST (MERCER) and one near HOLK (AA?).... And them at least 3 BF-109's of JG27. JG6 also lost a/c in that general area...
I THINK I have a third Ju-88 crashing near (west-)Rozenburg, which I place southwest of Rotterdam. Could be one of the Ju-88's pathfinding JG6...Where is #4?
Am waiting responses of the town archives and am rummaging around to see if I can find other sources too...