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Identify this wreck

Discussion in 'The Tanks of World War 2' started by Ricky, May 20, 2022.

  1. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    [​IMG]
    From
    PARAGUAY - Tenés que sentirlo

    Found this picture of a wreck in a Paraguayan museum, and I became slightly obsessed with figuring out what it was.
    Obviously the suspension seems to be the Vickers / Carden-Lloyd type, but that simply narrows it down to a range of light tanks and of course the Univerral Carrier. I am not sure if Paraguay ever had any Vickers Light Tanks. I have found referance to a couple of Universal Carriers sent to them, but they appear to have been in place as gate guardians fairly recently.

    Another option is that it comes as war booty from a neighbouring country (ie: Bolivia) but again I'm not sure that any of the neighbours used such tanks.

    Can anybody help?
     
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  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Tank destroyed by Paraguayan artillery at the battle of Nanawa, during the Chaco War.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    Thanks, that is a big help.

    The only problem now is finding a Bolivian tank with that suspension
     
  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I don't think it was a tank at all, but an artillery tractor.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Note the exact same suspension on the wreck.
     
  6. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    Well, here is what I have so far...

    Bolivia had 3 Vickers 6-ton tanks (very different suspension) and 2 Carden-lloyd Mk IV (very different suspension). All were present at Nanawa, and 1 of each was destroyed by Paraguyian forces. But this obviously isn't either of those vehicles, judging from the suspension.

    Thanks to Takao, I did find references to Bolvia having some Vickers tracked artillery tractors... but I can't find which model. The Dragon Mk III in the picture is based on the DA50 which (as far as I can tell) was first produced in 1934, a year after the 2nd battle of Nanawa. Information on other Vickers / Carden-Lloyd tractors is frustratingly scarce, but if there were other export models it could be one of those. Most though have 2 double-bogies, not 1 double & 1 single. I really thought Takao had cracked it...

    Obviously other possibilities are:

    1) Museum sign is incorrect - though in all honesty I do wonder where else it could be from. Brazil had some Vickers Light Tanks but AFAIK didn't use them in anger. Bolivia and Paraguay (again AFAIK) didn't have any other wars after the Chaco War. possibly it is from a later battle of the Chaco War... maybe

    2) The suspension doesn't match the hull. In which case I will cry.
     
  7. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    I'm getting nowhere fast...

    Vickers made a lot of little tracked vehicles back in the 1920s and 30s, many of which looked essentially similar to the wreck (for example browse this interesting link about the early development of the Universal Carrier)

    https://download.e-bookshelf.de/download/0003/6268/14/L-X-0003626814-0007111992.XHTML/index.xhtml

    But I can't find one that seems to quite fit the look and the timeframe, and all my books (and online stuff I can find) just say 'they made a lot of different things'. The earliest vehicle I can find with 3 bogies, 1 retuen roller, and the angles coil suspension with that nice curved fitting on the single bogie is from 1934. Even that was slightly different as it has the springs facing different directions rather than having the same slope. I may have to invest in some decent books on the Chaco War
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Have you tried e-mailing the museum to see what they can provide?
     
  9. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    No, but that is definitely worth a try.
     
  10. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    I have the impression that it is the hull of a Carden-Loyd MkIV(?) to which the suspension of a Bren carrier was attached laterally reversed.
    This picture shows a completely destroyed MkIV after the 2nd Battle of Nanawa.
    A1.jpg
    In view of the very limited number of tracked vehicles in action there, I simply assume that this is a reconstruction made from various remnants for "illustrative purposes".
    (This kind of thing is not uncommon for museums - the Tiger in the Panzermuseum Münster is even only made of plastic)
     
  11. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    I was already beginning to wonder the same thing. Certainly the attachments for the wheels (especially the return roller) look suspicious, and nothing like any Vickers I have seen.

    The fly in my ointment is that the hull doesn't look like a Carden-Lloyd to me.

    I'm beginning to wish I'd never seen this picture! lol
     
  12. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    So I have been trying to find a vehicle match based solely upon the hull.

    Now there are no obvious attachment points visible for the drive sprocket or idler wheel - I assume that the odd cut-out at one end means that there is a missing portion and that therefore the drive sprocket was located on that. No idler wheel is reasonably standard on Vickers light tracked vehicles and Carden-lloyd tankettes of the time.

    This would indicate that the more complete end is the rear. However, it looks nothing like the rear of ny Vickers / Carden-lloyd vehicle that I can find, they all have a very different slope.

    I did wonder if it might be some form of tracked trailer, like the Renault UK, but they all seem too small


    This might be something like it, the tractor or the trailer!
    [​IMG]
     
  13. ltdan

    ltdan Active Member

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    This is the rear of a Universal carrier - the similarities are quite obvious.
    001.jpg
    002b.jpg

    The same applies to the V8 engine:
    002.jpg

    the Mk IV had a Ford T model 4 cyl in-line engine - and front drive:
    003.jpg

    I can only speculate here again, but it seems (to me) that a universal carrier with a retrofitted front part was frankensteined as an exhibition object.
    004.jpg
     
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  14. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    Wow, yes it is extremely similar! And this sort of view of a hull is exactly what I have been looking for (please don't embarass me too much by saying it took you 0.5 secons to find!) Thank you very much indeed

    In my head that does seem like a lot of work to go to for a fake exhibit, but i have been told of similar mashups
    My only thought is that, as the Universal Carrier was a development of earlier Vickers/Carden-Lloyd designs, would they also have a similar hull? Even as I type this I can feel that I am grasping for a straw...
     

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