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If France and Britain never delcared war on Germany for attacking Poland, what would have been Germa

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by ww2fan, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    If France and Britain attacked in the West as soon as the first units of the BEF arrived in the West, they outnumbered Germany in men, planes, guns, and tanks in the West. They could have bull-rushed and most likely occupied parts of Western Germany while Germany was fighting Poland.
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Both. In the 20s Poland wanted Belarus, Ukraine and more. It saved itself from destruction when it halted Tukochevsky at Warsaw. Take a look at what Poland was in control of prior to the Russians coming to the aid of Soviet Ukrainians.
     
  3. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    And how many were there of those Soviet Ukrainians (one might say Ukrainian traitors), a thousand? Because the Ukrainians were fighting on the Polish side.

    The Poles were supported by:
    - 25,000 Russian soldiers led by Boris Savinkov, additionally the 40,000 strong Russian Volunteer Army was available, but was defeated by the Bolsheviks earlier,
    - 35,000 Ukrainians - the entire army of the Ukrainian People's Republic, led by Symon Petlura,
    - 1st. Belarusian-Lithuanian Division led by general Bułak-Bałachowicz.

    Additionally, just before the Kiev offensive, Poland and the Ukrainian People's Republic signed an alliance (the Treaty of Warsaw), with the obvious goal of fighting the Bolshevik invaders.

    So it wasn't just Poland, it was the Ukrainians fighting for their own republic, and Russians fighting the illegal Bolshevik government.
    Actually the initial Polish goal was the creation of Intermarium, an anti-Russian federation of various states including Belorussian and Ukrainian. This plan would be abandon later.
    Because of that the Polish demands were limited, more or less along the Polish borders after the first partition of Poland by Russia/Prussia/Austria. The original Polish borders were to be abandoned.
    And in fact Poland took less land that the Bolsheviks offered during the final peace talks.
     
  4. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    "The British military historian and general J.F.C. Fuller ranks the battle of Warsaw in 1920, and the Polish victory in the war, as one of the most decisive victories in history since it prevented Soviet influence from spreading to the borders of Germany, Hungary and Romania at a critical stage in these countries."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

    "Poland was the geographical bridge that the Red Army would have to cross to provide direct physical support in the West. Lenin aimed to regain control of the territories abandoned by Russia in the Brest-Litovsk Treaty of March 1918, to infiltrate the borderlands, to set up Soviet governments there as well as in Poland, and to reach Germany."

    I know, everyone can quote wikipedia. But to me, the defeat in Poland halted the communist revolution. So the soviets failed completely to reach their main objective. Soviet communism disappeared later, Poland exists today.
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    In a parallel development the Hungarian Soviet Republic was established, well, in Hungary led by a mini-Lenin Béla Kun.
    Then the Hungarian Soviets got cheeky, attacked Czechoslovakia and established there the Slovak Soviet Republic.
    Next they attacked Romania but that was a mistake, because in response the Romanians simply annihilated the Hungarian Red Army, before the real Red Army was able to rescue them.
    So it wasn't just Poland, the other East Europeans countries were fighting for their survival too.
     
  6. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    This is not correct : the first units of the BEF arrived at the end of september and at that moment there was no French superiority in the West .
     
  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    After the Russian revolution, a civil war engulfed the country until 1922. It was during this time when Pilsudski decided to expand the Polish borders as Far East as he could. Much fighting took place between states who were part of the Russian Empire not long ago. Civil war took place in Ukraine as well. Soviet Ukrainians began fighting the Nationalists. Poland pushed eastward. It was only stopped when the Bolsheviks came to East Ukrainians aid. The advance into Belarus was also halted. This was a very tumultuous time with many trying to carve out a piece for themselves. Poland was united - Russia was not neither was Ukraine. None the less Poland with the help of the Bolsheviks was pushed back from its earlier conquests. The Eastern borders secured in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. Bolsheviks won the civil war a year later. The Soviet Union was born and both Belarus (newly created) and Kiev were inducted into the union.

    Curious... Where did you get the notion that the Bolshevik revolution was illegal?

    BTW, the Polish Parliament has just recently adopted a resolution describing the mass killings of Polish citizens by the Ukrainians during WWII as an act of genocide (the very same who helped you fight the evil Bolsheviks 20 yrs earlier). Have you heard?
     
  8. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Poland exists today because the Russians did what the Poles couldn't in WWII along with multiple other European countries.
     
  9. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Milions of people living there would pay with their lives for that inducting, not to mentioned more millions of lives ruined by Stalin's experiments.
    In Poland at least they would have had twenty years of peaceful life, as free people.


    It was a violent coup executed against the legal government, soiled by the regicide to boot. It wasn't confirmed by any free elections ever. It was a police dictatorship from the day one.
    The Soviet government wasn't recognized by any major power for a long time, for example Britain and France - for 7 years, the US - 16 years. Even the supposedly friendly Czechoslovakia needed 17 years to recognize it.
    .

    It is directed at the group which did it, not the nation.
    In Poland the official moral theory taught in schools says the perpetrators not the nation should be blamed. So genocides are failures of humanity, not a particular nation.
     
  10. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    A successful revolution becomes /is always legal,it's legality depends on its success, not on the recognition by foreign governments .

    Besides, the regime that was overthrown by the Soviets,had on its turn, overthrown the legal regime of the Tsar, as had done Pilsudski in 1926 and the American insurgents in 1776 and the French in 1789 and the Germans in 1918,etc,etc.

    Legality is not an argument .
     
  11. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Although tsar Nicholas II abdicated voluntarily - following his "duty of conscience", leaving a power vacuum. He didn't contest the political development in his country.
    The provisional government which replaced his rule represented all the major political parties, and arranged for elections to be held later. It was recognized by all the major powers, including the US, immediately.

    Similarly in the cases of Piłsudski and the American revolution, power was handed over voluntarily and legally in the end.
     
  12. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    And the Hitler regime was recognized by all countries, including the US, immediately .

    Why would in the case of Pilsudski and the American revolution power be handed over voluntarily and legally ?

    In all these cases (American revolution, French revolution, Communist revolution, Pilsudski, Hitler,etc) a government de facto became a government de jure . Legality results from victory .
     
  13. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The British handed over power by signing the Treaty of Paris.
    The pre-Pilsudski government voluntarily handed over power to Pilsuski, despite the fact it was able to resist for a long time and maybe even to win, in order to prevent the developing country-wide civil war.
    In France the king was deposed by a dutifully elected legislative assembly.
    Hitler's government was of course legal from the beginning.
     
  14. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    You didn't answer the question, what made it illegal?

    The French Revolution was also violent and against a "legal" government. The result for its leaders was the same. Was the French Revolution illegal? What was the difference?

    Didn't blame a nation. The Nationalis Ukrainians that committed the Polish genocide were the same ones who fought alongside Poland against the Bolsheviks. They were also the ines who welcomed the Nazis as liberators and are the same ones in power now.

    What are your thoughts on the matter?
     
  15. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    @Sliniksp
    Don't bother my friend; his reasoning is simple: Polish=Legal, Russian=Illegal.
     
  16. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    GB did not voluntarily hand over power. The American Revolution had to be first won on the field of battle. What else could the Brits do besides handing over power after they had lost?

    I don't understand the point you are trying to make here not to mention that it made no difference who recognized what afterwards. Just because GB had a difficult time accepting post Romanov Russia, didn't make it any less "legal" not even mentioning the fact that Tsar Nicholas was King George's V cousin who refused to give Nicholas asylum.

    I will add that - Revolutions are ALWAYS legal. Coupes are always ILLEGAL. Reason? Coupes always have a 3rd party involvement and never changes intrernal social structures...
     
  17. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The communist coup of november 1917 and the Pilsudski coup of 1926 were both directed against a "legal " government and one can not excuse the former and blame the latter .

    And in France the king was deposed by a legislative assembly elected by 50000 rich males, a very small part of a population of 25 million .
     
  18. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    I suppose 50000 males is still better than a single male :)

    The Pilsudski coup was against the legal government, but that (unpopular right wing) government voluntarily resigned after a brief period of fighting and new one was appointed by the still existing parliament. No political party contested legality of this political maneuver. There was nothing illegal in it.

    It wasn't like the Spanish coup of 1936, or the Bolshevik revolution - those were opposed for years to come, by the legal Spanish government, and the so called White movement.
     
  19. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    legitimate government = a government generally acknowledged as being in control of a nation and deserving formal recognition, which is symbolized by the exchange of diplomats between that government and the governments of other countries.

    Formal recognition of the Bolshevik government was refused by most states for several years, making it illegitimate. This meant they couldn't enjoy any benefits of legitimacy, like diplomatic immunity, international legal agreements, international justice, membership in international bodies.



    Not quite, all the pre-1939 moderate Ukrainian parties ( УНДО, УРДП, УКНП, ВУО, ФНЄ ) were destroyed by the Nazis or the Soviets, they leaders and members murdered or forced to emigrate.
    Only the terrorist and deeply conspiratorial ОУН survived and a fraction of it - the Banderites were responsible for the atrocities.
    They had nothing in common with the other Ukrainians, and in fact lots of Ukrainians were murdered by the Banderites too.

    The pre- atrocities Banderites sometimes cooperated with the Poles, it happened for example in Auschwitz - against the Nazis.
     
  20. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    17 September 2016
    DECLARATION OF MEMORY AND SOLIDARITY
    by the Sejm of the Republic of Poland and the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine

    Guided by the spirit of solidarity among the peoples of Poland and Ukraine;
    Acting in the spirit of strategic partnership between the Republic of Poland and Ukraine;
    Stressing our unwavering commitment to the fundamental principles of international law and to the common defence of the national sovereignty, territorial integrity and inviolability of the borders of each of our countries;
    Recalling the great historic sacrifice of our nations to defend their freedom and independence;
    Striving to defend freedom and ensure that our nations live in dignity within a united Europe;
    We, representatives of the Sejm of the Republic of Poland and the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine,
    Jointly and simultaneously adopt this Declaration of Memory and Solidarity to pay homage to the memory of millions of victims of our nations during World War II and to condemn external aggressors who attempted to destroy our national independence,
    Note the fact that the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact concluded on 23 August 1939 between two totalitarian regimes – the Communist USSR and Nazi Germany - led to the outbreak of the Second World War caused by the aggression of Germany that was joined by the Soviet Union on 17 September 1939.
    As a consequence of those events, Poland was occupied by Germany and the Soviet Union, followed by mass-scale repressions against our peoples. These events also led to the approval of decisions in Yalta in 1945, which ushered in a new stage in enslaving the entire Eastern and Central Europe, which lasted for half a century,
    Remember that it was the weakness of international response to the rise of totalitarian and chauvinistic ideologies and the absence of necessary response towards aggressors flouting international law, as well as the policy of appeasement that encouraged the aggression of the Communist and Nazi regimes and the ensuing re-division of Europe,
    Pay homage to the millions of victims of aggression and occupation of our lands by the communist Soviet Union and Nazi Germany,
    Remember the heroic resistance of Polish and Ukrainian anti-Communist and anti-Nazi forces who laid a moral foundation for the restoration of independence of our countries,
    Believe in the need to strengthen unbiased historical research and to restrain those forces that provoke controversy in our countries,
    Highlight that the aggressive foreign policy of the Russian Federation, the Russian occupation of Crimea, implementation and support by the Kremlin of the military intervention in eastern Ukraine, the violation of the fundamental norms of international law and treaties concluded with Ukraine, the failure by Russia to honour its agreements and its hybrid information war are posing a threat to peace and security in the whole of Europe,
    Express our solidarity with the entire Ukrainian people, including Crimean Tartars, in this period of great trial,
    Underline the joint commitment to measures towards a peaceful settlement of the conflict in the east of Ukraine and the restoration of its territorial integrity,
    Emphasize the need for cohesive actions in the framework of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation against new threats and express support to a deeper cooperation between the Alliance and Ukraine as well as to Ukraine’s strategic goal of becoming a NATO member,
    Urge all European partners to demonstrate unity and international solidarity to protect a United Europe from external aggression,
    Urge all peoples of the entire Europe to remember the causes and consequences of World War II and to make joint efforts to defend security and freedom.
     

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