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If hitler began operation Barbarossa at his initial proposed date

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by .docholliday, Jan 13, 2008.

?

Could Hitler have succeded in destroying the Russian state in 1941 or at least reaching the Ural mou

  1. Yes, it could be realised

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    40.0%
  3. Hitler captures mowcow but red army communications arn't shattered

    16 vote(s)
    45.7%
  4. Hitler captures Moscow, but Wehrmacht doesn't have the manpower to continue obilteration of Russia

    5 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. MManchester

    MManchester Member

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    One thing I haven't seen mentioned directly yet is the fact that the Russian railway system was designed with a different scale then that of Europe, so all other things discounted, Germany still would have had a hard time with getting fresh supplies to their troops due to the fact that they had to tear up and re-lay hundreds of miles of track.
     
  2. tinmanl19

    tinmanl19 Member

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    they wouldn't have HAD to rip up and relay the rail lines right away. THe could have unloaded and then reloaded supplies from one rail line to another using slave labor from captured civilians as a stop gap.
     
  3. MManchester

    MManchester Member

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    But they DIDN'T do that, which is part of the reason they had such a hard time as it was. The tried to move things by truck and horse-drawn wagons which bogged down in the mud when the weather turned. The Germans were having trouble keeping supplies to their troops even before the weather changed due to a lack of quality roads. So although using slave labor would have been a viable alternative, if the Russians hadn't sabotaged their own rail system in retreat, it's one that wasn't used.
     
  4. GrossBorn

    GrossBorn Member

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    I've always heard about the different rail gauges...but how did they handle the Berlin-Moscow express train that ran regularly and even passed through the lines just before the attack on June 21.
    Was that line a similar gauge throughout the line?
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    No, it seems.

    Polish State Railroads Summer 1939 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Passenger rail connections between the Soviet Union and Western Europe required a change of trains due to the difference in gauge. If one travelled towards Moscow, it was necessary to change at the Soviet border station Niegoreloje. Travelling from Moscow, the change took place at the Polish station Stolpce.
     
  6. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Actually the main reason for the difference in the rail gauge was for exactly that, protection.....

    Even today a train coming from Europe into Russia would have to be lifted (boxcar) and a new set of wheels would be placed underneath. This is why there is always a delay when coming from Europe to Russia by train.
     
  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Perhaps some reading is in order then eh? ;)
     
  8. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    I agree 100% with this one.
     
    Slipdigit likes this.
  9. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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    The only two things that stopped the Nazis complete victory or Russia was the winter and the Soviet sniper division. But I will say even if the red army was defeated there would be a bitter guerrilla war. I wonder if they were defeated if they would be able to send some of the Wehrmacht back to France to repel the Allied onslaught?
     
  10. Ironcross

    Ironcross Dishonorably Discharged

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    Damn those "sniper divsions". Had those snipers frozen to death Germany might have won the war. Less Russian snipers means higher moral for the Germans, and moral was all that's needed for that final push towards Moscow.
    Keep up the good work. Hail Hitler
     
  11. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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  12. Ironcross

    Ironcross Dishonorably Discharged

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  13. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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  14. Ironcross

    Ironcross Dishonorably Discharged

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  15. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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  16. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    Originally Posted by PactOfSteel [​IMG]
    the Germans should have defeated Russia, I do not believe Russia did anything clever or intelligent to win, they had sheer numbers and bitter cold on their side is all.


    Sorry Pactofsteel but this thread and what you have said here is absurd.:eek:
    The russians did nothing 'intelligent to win the war' what about the tank battle of kurst, or the extremely succesfull encirclement of stalingrad and the desturction of the 6th army, or the holding of lenningrad, or the invention of the t-34, were all these flukes that nature gave them?:confused:, and about the fact the russians used the 'winter' against the Germans the Russians didn't control the weather and didn't use it against the Germans the Germans used it against themselves by not capturing Russia faster.

    Sheer Weight of numbers don't win wars just look at the Russians losing in ww1 against an inferior german army even then the russians had the cold you refer to so why couldn't the Germans win this time? Simple, because Russia is just too damned big for any one nation to attack and hope to control, supply lines get streched and cut to often, the weather is horrible in the winter and the people are very good at defending the past show us that.

    I am happy for you to be a neo-nazis talking about how the germans should have won the war and how they are the better race, however the truth is far from that, for example if the germans were so great why did they use horsedrawn supplies? or allow such weapons as the elephant to waste valuable industrial resources?, or even why did they lose the 6th army at stalingrad, why did they allow themselves to be surrounded and destoyed? Look I could go on all day about german mistakes, they are not the supreme race ww2 has shown that to us.

    Now I don't in anyway think that the Russians are perfect or anyway race for that matter every nation made mistakes in there politics and military discsions I just think that saying that one is perfect is just adsurd because history has taught us this over and over again.

    Just one more thing, if the Germans were so superior then the rest of the world then I ask you this question, "who won the war again"?
     
  17. Ironcross

    Ironcross Dishonorably Discharged

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  18. PactOfSteel

    PactOfSteel Dishonorably Discharged

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    awesome! Tomcat - Just one more thing, if the Germans were so superior then the rest of the world then I ask you this question, "who won the war again"?

    they sure got close, remember they had a two-front war and thats impossible to win.
    YouTube - Juni 1941 Operation Barbarossa in colour
     
  19. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    hahaha you say they got close, so the desert war was close was it with Rommel beaten, or the Germans almost beating the Russians, it would have never have happened with German commitments else where, and then with D-day they were even futher from 'close' to winning.

    It dosn't matter how many countries Germany went against because she chose them all to go to war with she chose her own fate.
     
  20. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    If the invasion started on it's proposed date say without Mussolini invading Greece and causing the Balkan interlude I can see the Germans getting into Moscow by November.
    The Battle of Moscow would have been worse than Stalingrad and with the Soviet counter offensive in December I can see a large number of German troops being cut off in Moscow.
    The Germans where perhaps lucky they didnt make it to Moscow in our time line.
     

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