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If Imperial Japan had turned back on Nazi Germany?

Discussion in 'What If - Pacific and CBI' started by Theoask, Feb 19, 2016.

  1. Theoask

    Theoask New Member

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    Hello,

    I wonder what could have happened if Imperial Japan had decided during the course of WWII after Pearl Harbour to cease to be an ally of Nazi Germany ? Would the downfall of Imperial Japan have been faster, or not necessarily? Would this major shift have impacted the end of WWII realistically?

    Japan and Germany during the war were allies, but had different goals and strategies.

    Their only similarity , I think, was that they wanted power and territorial expansion. Japan wanted to conquer land, Germany too. But the latest wanted also to exterminate Jews, and to take revenge other European nations, especially over France. These are two additional goalsthat Japan didn't have.Furthermore, Japan being very far from Germany, material and military aid from Germany to Japan was very limited.

    Germany did ship a few tanks and submarines to Japan, but Japan had to rely solely on its own production and resources mainly .

    What if Japan , after having conquered several nations and China, had decided that it no longer needed to be an ally of Nazi Germany ? What could have happened?Imperial Japan didn't have the capacity to fight on 2 fronts (against the USA in the Pacific and against the Soviet Union by land going West). So I think Japan was doomed anyway sooner or later...But by cutting its ties with Germany, maybe that Japan could have made new alliances with other countries..

    And maybe with neutral countries, or coutnries not yeat involved in WWII leading to a very different war map...I don't know if my suggestions make sense or not, since other countries didn't have the military capacity to help Japan (or to fight against Japan), but just bry drafting indigenous soldiers or foreing soldiers in great number, maybe that the Japanese could have expanded West, maybe reaching the Eastern frontier of India? Anyway I think Soviet Union would have stopped them at some point...
     
  2. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    I moved this to the proper forum.
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Good move Lou, beat me to it.

    Short answer, no effect at all worth mentioning.

    The Allies were fighting Japan for reasons that had very little to do with the Tripartite Alliance. Further who could japan form any alliance with? no one of significance.
     
  4. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    I have to agree Darrell. There don't seem to be many other nations, either in the Pacific or elsewhere, that would help Japan militarily. The alliance with Germany was only for convenience.They didn't share much in the way of aims other than amassing territory that would add to their wealth. Once they began losing, I don''t see much in the way of sharing. Consequently, I don't see the US war with Japan ending other than it did.
     
  5. Theoask

    Theoask New Member

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    What if Imperial Japan had the atomic bomb just before the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombing of the USA in 1945?? Would this have turned the tables against the Allies?

    Germany was on the point of getting the atomic bomb, this has been provien historically. Surely Nazi Germany would have used nuclear power against the Allies, killing civilians in the process. Germany COULD have shared this technology with Japan to help get rid of US Navy power and US presence in the Pacific. (and even Soviet Union too which was deeply threatening Germany at its borders).

    However I wonder if Germany would have not been afraid that Japan with the atomic bomb would have bombed...Germany! Maybe that Japan feeling so powerful would have turned against its "ally"...Now that I think about it it seems very plausible..Yet no one can be certain of this of course.

    I don't kow if Japan scientific researchers were as advanced as Germany's and the allies" scientific people...
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    In response to your first question by the time of PH it was too late. Now if Japan had allied with the UK in say June of 1940 that might have had all sorts of "interesting" ramifications.
    Japan lacked the delivery systems even if they had the bomb. They also lacked the material to build one from what I've seen. Germany was along way from getting the bomb from all the historical evidence I've seen. Indeed in some areas the Japanese may have had a better handle on the science of making the bomb than the Germans did. They at least had a good idea of how much Uranium it would take to make a Uranium bomb and how much the US had.

    Germany and Japan were so far apart they had little capability to even act as allies much less as opponents.
     
  7. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Japan's background is so convoluted that it is difficult to imagine them sticking to any one alliance. The various elements vehemently disagreed with each other, and when they assumed power (usually through assassination) they undid what had been done earlier. For an in-depth look at Japanese politics prior to PH, I recommend Hotta's Japan 1941. It is most enlightening.
     
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  8. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    Off the top of my head, a what-if scenario that could mean change of fortune is no more expansion after taking Manchuria in 1931. Like Franco's Spain after he won the nation, could Japan instead of isolation after the Mukden Incident work with non-US states to develop the conquered lands ?
     
  9. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Unlikely, Japan had a lot of hard feelings over how Britain had treated them post WWI (to a degree justifiable). Up until the post-WWI peace talks, Japan and Britain had a very close relationship, the Japanese more like little brothers emulating and older brother they idolized. They were a staunch ally in WWI even going as far as to draw down their naval assets below what they felt were required to defend their Home Islands in order to transfer additional ships to aid Britain in the Med. They pretty much opposed German forces in the Pacific on their own, allowing Britain and Australia to concentrate their forces in Europe.
    Then when the war ended, what did Japan ask for? To be treated as equals. (German colonies in the Pacific were divvied up by Japan, Australia and New Zealand)

    Japanese Baron Makino Nobuaki proposed the following amendment;

    "The equality of nations being a basic principle of the League of Nations, the High Contracting Parties agree to accord as soon as possible to all alien nationals of states, members of the League, equal and just treatment in every respect making no distinction, either in law or in fact, on account of their race or nationality."

    A majority, 11 of the 17 delegates (including Italy and France) voted to approve the amendment. Britain was somewhat open to the amendment, but Australia in particular pushed back because it feared that it would undercut it's White Australia Policy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy) President Wilson, the Chairman, put the issue to rest by declaring such a proposal would require unanimous consent. The Japanese public was being kept abreast of the deliberations and became angered with the west.

    Baron Makino Nobuaki summed up the general Japanese feeling on the subject when he stated;

    "We are not too proud to fight but we are too proud to accept a place of admitted inferiority in dealing with one or more of the associated nations.We want nothing but simple justice."

    The net result was that Japan withdrew inwards, became more nationalistic and less inclined towards international cooperation. Now, Japan had not suffered during the war to the extend that Britain, Australia, France and the United States had so retained pre-war attitudes (that they'd copied from the west) as to how nation states interacted. Those nations that had suffered most in the great war had become adverse to the use of force to settle international disagreements. This did not prevent the US, which had become isolationist, from using force in dealings in the western hemisphere, more often than not for economic reasons. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars). This was justified in America's view by the Monroe Doctrine. Japan felt it had similar rights with regards to Korea (justifiably), Manchuria and simply continued the pre-war western policies with regards to China.

    Then when Britain withdrew from the longstanding Anglo-Japanese Treaty in 1923, Japan again felt they were being rebuffed by their former allies. This time it was because of Canada, that feared a potential future war between the US and Japan would place it in an awkward situation if the treaty were renewed. Australia this time wanted the treaty renewed because they feared Japan's growing power in the region would not be off-set by an increasingly isolationist US.

    The US, that had emerged from the Great War as an industrial power wanted to minimize Japanese influence in the region because the raw materials produced there were so critical to their continued economic health. Rubber, tin, manganese, copra, and chromium, were among a group of strategic materials the bulk of which came from the Asia/Pacific region.

    ...more later, been on vacation this week and the wife has me doing a total tear out and remodel of a bathroom. She's been working me like a borrowed mule and doesn't like me wasting valuable construction time on the forum.
     
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  10. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Who was going to be Japans friend if not Germany? Can't do it all by yourself (even with Germany :D). Japan enjoyed a fruitful relationship with Germany. Who else was going to give the Japanese all they received from Germany?
     
  11. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    Japan was slightly allied with Thailand. Other than that, I don't think that there were any countries left in that part of the world left for them to cultivate a friendship with, much less a meaningful and worthy alliance. Besides, they attacked all of their neighbors, friends and friends of friends between 1931 and 1941.

    Even the couple three or so "Free Indian" divisions that lined up with them were poorly treated during the Japanese invasion of India. Japanese units on the flanks of their Indian allies did not inform Free Indian units before falling back or shifting away from contact with British forces. The Japanese were poor allies, even to themselves. Even their Army and Navy didn't get along very well.
     
  12. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Even inside the Japanese government in the 30s there was disagreement about allying with anyone. Some wanted to ally with Russia, others with Germany, some were convinced that Japan could and should go it alone. These disparate elements argued incessantly about which should have primacy. The only thing they could agree on was Japanese superiority. I read Togo Shigenori's book The Cause of Japan which made these allegations feel more real. In any case, the Japanese sense of superiority led them to believe they could do whatever they wished in Asia and should face no reprisals for it.
     

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