If the Germans had captured Moscow, what do you think would have happened?

Stalin in 1941 was in a much better position than Hitler was in 1945. He had an armored train waiting for him in case anything went wrong, which means he was willing to leave Moscow. I am 100% sure that Stalin and the communist party would fight on even if Moscow had been taken. Look at what happened in 1905(after the Russo-Japanese war) and in 1917(During WWI). Stalin knew it was the defeats of the Russian army that caused those revolutions, he was not stupid enough to follow the path of Nicholas II. Peace treaty was completely out of the damn question. The Russian people were sick and tired of being beaten all the time, they were not going to go through that crap again.

 

Considering that administration was already evacuated, communications were evacuated, embassies were evacuated, part of the production was evacuated, etc, etc, etc ... it's difficult to see how the capturing of Moscow could have changed anything.

The only thing not evacuated was the nailed down railway network.

And remembering that losing/encircling of Minsk, Kiew, Leningrad, Kharkov, Sevastopol, Rostov, Smolenks (almost all the major cities in the Soviet Union) didn't affect the morale since communist controlled the information and how the information was presented to people - I don't think that losing Moscow could have ruined the morale or caused any trouble to Stalin.


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Moscow to my understanding was the Communications, Ecconomic, Political, Military, Spiritual hub of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Government was so centralized that Moscow was the be all and end all of the Nation, Yes the Soviet Union could survive the losses of Stalingrad and Leningrad as they were not the be all and end all of the Soviet Union, Moscow was, no other city east of the River Volga had the capacity to replace Moscow, if there is please let me know.

With confusion of the loss of Moscow a cancer would set in, the Soviet Red Army would disintigrate, it would take years for the Soviet Red Army to stabilized, some here have the misconception that relocating a centralized regime like the Soviet Regime would be easy and not affect the entire course of events. Stalin having fled to the Eastern Urals would lose face, how many Generals would stay loyal, after his purges i would say very few, Stalin in my opinion would lose the support of the Military as revenge for those purges.

Another issue of this, would the fall of Moscow and the Axis occupying the entire A-A Line precipitate the break up of the Soviet Union, would the likes of Georgia, Azerbaijan and others decide to throw of communism and embrace independence. Also what about the Soviet Troops themselves, imagine them on the battlefield told to "not take one step back" whent their leader has bolted to the other side of the Ural Mountains, i would see wholesale desertion.

And to finish off i would see the capture of Moscow and the disintigration of the Soviet structure as a catalyst for Japan to launch a major offensive in the East. It is all to easy to fob off the loss of Moscow as inconsequentual, but it would prove catastophic. The Soviet Union would be forced to surrender within twelve months

 

This is incorrect.

Evidence would contradict this.

Try this.

Most of the Soviet Staff actually expected Moscow to fall. As a result Kubyshev was designated as the temporary capital in case the city fell. It was about 600 miles or so to the east and pretty much all of the Soviet Staff and Stavka were there, including Molotov and even Lenin. It was a huge industrial town with a large population.

A skeleton force remained in Moscow along with an armored train to escort Stalin and the Generals to safety in case all failed.

Moscow itself was booby trapped. 1200 buildings including the Kremilin Govt. Buildings and even the Bolshoi Theatre were rigged with explosives as these were the first buildings which would have surely been visited by the German High Command.

Partisan groups were already set up to continue the fight and were even given special assignments after the city fell.

The biggest problem that the Germans might have very well faced was getting out of the city if ever captured. Germany would have lost a tremendous amount of men and reinforcements would have been minimal if any.

Example: In the first 6 months on the Eastern Front, Germany suffered 1 million casualties but only received 200 thousand replacements. At the same time the Red Army ( while suffering casualties ) actually grew in size by 2 million.

As for the argument about the 650K Russian troops escaping but unable to do anything for the lack of transportation.... The Germans too would suffer this. Except now they would sustain huge losses, have even longer supply lines and on top of that would be facing a force on which is now larger then they actually encounterd and on their flank.

 

Thanks Slon for the naming of Kubyshev as a secondary capital.

But surely having been told not to take one step back by Stalin and then Stalin himself cuts and runs to Kubyshev, could you imagine what morale effect that would have on the ordinary footslogger, what would the effect of this on those who despised Stalin. But you have to at least admit the capture of Moscow would be a set back for the Soviets.

On the Armoured Train, i would hate for Stalin to leave it to the last minute only to have the train attacked. Also if Moscow is essentially rigged to be wiped off the map so to speak, what about the civilian population, i can say they exactly won't be danciing in the streets if there are any to dance in to praise Stalin.

I would say that the Germans would not stop at Moscow, they would push forward until they captured the entire A-A line, plus one aspect of this if the German did indeed captured the A-A Line surely they would eventually capture the entire Caucasus, then push into Iran (Persia) and then come up the other side of the Caspian Sea capturing more oilfields, once Persia has being captured there goes any link for lend lease.

 

Read some books.

 

I would think that they would be used to it knowing how much Stalin beat them. Okay not really but I could not resist.

Lend-Lease could be gotten through China and later through the Vladivostock.

 

What would happen if Japan decides not to attack Pearl Harbour but instead uses her Imperial Navy to Blockade US Convoys to China, Vladivostok and other Eastern Soviet Ports.

 

The order #227 ( also know as "Not One Step Back" ) was issued on 28 July 1942. This order was given at the onset of the infamous battle we know as Stalingrad.

The Caucus then Persia? The Germans barely held their supply lines at the outskirts of Moscow. Sorry Von Run, your living in a dream world my friend.

 

Well i like to dream, remember my friend, that in alternate histories anything is possible. Yes i do know of order #227 of not one step back, but imagine you will, you are a soldier in Stalingrad and have just been given that order, and you find out that your Supreme Soviet Joseph Stalin and the entire General Staff has just bolted from Moscow and now is safe on the other side of the Urals, for me i would say screw this i'm outta here, and rest assured my dear friend i would not be alone.

You forget that morale on the battlefield sometimes can sway the battle, losing Moscow and then in quick time Leningrad and Stalingrad might just be the catalyst of irreversible rot.

 

Im not sure I understand. The order #227 came at Stalingrad after typhoon. Moscow was in no danger. Why would Stalin ever consider leaving the city at the battle of Stalingrad?


Lets also not forget, that Stalin refused to trade Paulus for his son who later died in the hands of the Germans for the very same reason.

 

Weird. I was told by my friend in Gomel that Stalins son died outside the city fighting the Germans. They even have a monument there. I never questioned it and I never read the writing on the monument.

Lore?, some claim put out for reasons of grandeur? There is also a family known by the name Sukhoi there but they have nothing to do with Sukhoi aviation.

How credible is what wiki says?

 

What if the Soviets had captured Berlin in 1944?

 

I actually found an article not too long ago ( several months perhaps ) in the news about the FSB putting an end to the where abouts and other speculations as to what happend to Stalin's son. The official report read the he was a POW and was killed trying to escape.....

 

People sometimes say to me: "Be careful! You will have twenty years of guerrilla warfare on your hands!" I am delighted at the prospect... Germany will remain in a state of perpetual alertness.

Adolf Hitler
August 29th 1942

-interesting eh?

 

There are other versions of his death too,

Suicide
Red Cushing and The last days of Lieutenant Jakov Stalin - Ireland and SCW -

Revealed: how Stalin's brutal massacre at Katyn shamed his PoW son into suicide - Telegraph

Shot while trying to escape
Stalin's Son Died in a Nazi Camp

The Death of Stalin's Son - TIME

Yakov Dzhugashvili - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

so all that would have happened if the Germans got Moscow is that it would have been a perpetual guerrilla war like Vietnam or Iraq but for the Germans because Russia is just too big of a country to control as well.

 

Just a note: Iraq is not a "guerrilla war." For that to happen there would have to be an orgainzed nationalistic front acting against the US and Iraqi government rather than the loose group of unassociated terrorist factions under local war lords that fight each other almost as much as they fight the US or Iraqi government.
Iraq would now be more characterized as a civil war than a guerrilla war.

 

At least while Muqtada Al Sadr is laying low

 

insurgents = guerillas, same thing. Were not fighting a Army/Military force in Iraq. Just like if the Nazis took Moscow, they would be fighting Russian insurgents/guerilla warfare.