Italian Military

The Italians took good ass beatin' during both WWI and WWII. Shit supply or not, they got spanked.

 

Peppy...
The reason they took an 'ass beating' as you put it, is because of that supply factor and the other being the bad equipment.

If you were to stick the US Soldiers (or any other country) with the equipment and bad supply the Italians had, they'd also get a spanking in the trenches of WWI and Africa and the rest of the world in WWII.

Mussolini.

 

I'd be willing to bet a Tiger tank that Mito's Portuguese comment was hardly a complement. We're all intelligent scholars here with a common interest; can't we just try and keep it that way?

 

Hmm...i've been trying to figure out what Mito has said...

Vai to take in the eye of yours cú, corno

What does Vai, cu, and corno mean?

Mito, se você tivesse um problema, deixou-me sabe. O dont I sabe o português, este é de um programa no altavista, assim que wont problary faz o sentido. (That doesnt make sense, but i tried)

------------------
Mussolini
Benchè l' Italia possa essere dal lato perdente di WWII, l' Italia aumenterà ancora durante i prossimi anni.

 

who gives a shit if he's insulting, back to Italy.

I have a question. Do you think Italy would have been a better military power in WWII if a better administrator than Mussolini had come to power?

 

The difference, if any, might not have changed teh fate of Italy. You have to rember that the Italins were generally outgunned and possed out dated weapons. If they had a different leader, their effect wouldnt have been any different. The King was also getting old and his son was irresponably (if i keep my facts straight) and for a ll we know, Italy would have sided with the allies in the beginning and might have fallen to an attack by the Germans.

------------------
Mussolini
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>' anima da solo sposta la rotella di storia<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ~ Benito Mussolini~

"What the proletariat needs is a bath of blood." Benito Mussolini, speech in Milan, July 22, 1919

"Liberty is a duty, not a right"
--Benito Mussolini

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mito:
Red Amry divisions were being positioned the border and deep inside Russia, preparing for an attack.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The old, revisionist thesis of BARBAROSSA being a preemptive war emerges time and again. One of the last attempt had been made by an ex-KGB agent called Vladimir Redzun alias Victor Suvorov. Suvorov’s work was largely disproved by most other historians, first to name Gabriel Gorodetsky and David M. Glanz. Suvorov’s “answer” to Gorodetsky was an almost unveiled ad hominem call against Mr. Gorodetsky. Consequently, Mr. Gorodetsky received threats against his life.

Despite Suvorov was found wrong, his work found much popular attention in Germany and Russia. No wonder why: It “explains” perfectly both the bad performance of the Russians and excuses the Nazi attack on the SU.

And that’s exactely what many wants to hear.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Do your homework.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good advise. Did you do it?.

 

yeah, Stalin wasn't invading Eastern Europe after all. The Baltic Republics, Finland and Poland were just minor raids...

 

Yeah - Stalin would have been crazy to start a war with Eastern Europe - espically if he had began it before Hitler attacked Poland. Either way, WWII would have happened, though if Stalin started it, maybe Germany would have been with the allies or crumbled under the iron fist of Stalin.

I'm not saying i know a lot about the wole russian OOB and why they did what they did - just based on what i can think of.

------------------
Mussolini

"Blood alone moves the Wheels of history." Benito Mussolini.

"What the proletariat needs is a bath of blood." Benito Mussolini, speech in Milan, July 22, 1919

"Liberty is a duty, not a right"
--Benito Mussolini

 

The Italians didnt do too bad a job fighting in Russia. Also, there were 3 Italians who were Knights Cross Recipients, that were serving in U-Boats. As for any other Italian successes, I am not aware of any major ones, except Ethiopia (spelling)?

 

a lot of italian soldiers received german decorations but I have not data on the exact number.
The italian contingent in Russia made a good work in the year and half of its employment considering its dimension in these of russina front (10 divisions in the max presence moment)
Generally speaking, Italian role can be splitted between June 1940-January 1941 when italians encountered enemy by themselves and were completely defeated and February 1941-August 1943 when the larger part of italian fighting forces were operating in close link with germans and it's quite impossible talk of a battle "exclusively" Italian....in this period Italian forces reached many tactical success but were adsorbed in the general "German" vision

 

Dear Lupo, thanks for the info. I know certain Italian units did well, such as the Beseglerie (spelling?) which comes to mind. Trouble is, they practically melted away when the Russians got the upperhand at Stalingrad. I know they arent to be the only ones to blame, the Hungarians and Romanians were also at fault-to an extent. I blame the failure not only on poor leadership, but lack of heavy weapons, supplies and good ground and air support.

The Italians performed admirabley at the Stalingrad Front. I do think much of the blame has to be put on the Romanians. The Romanians were the weakest troops there, with low morale, and lousy leaders.

Some sources of this info, can be found in Osprey Men-At-Arms books on the German Forces and Allies in WW2. You can find more sources in any library history section. I read too many books to be able to quote what is said from what book.

 

Dear Evans, the correct spelling is Bersaglieri.....well, examine the facts about Stalingrad. The Italian 8th Army was displayed on a front along Don River, 20 infantry regiments (+4 germans) for 200 km, no tanks, relative few AT weapons and vehicles, always troubles with supply. Soviets first attack Rumenians in November. Italians turn came one month after. Soviet launch their classical steam-roller against the center of italian line: 5-7 divisions against 4 italian regiments, Italians resist for 48 hours, after break. In the breech, Russians launch their mech forces and start to penetrate deep in italian rears. At north of the breech, the Alpine Corps (an elite mountain troops force) reach to buffer the hole with the help of some german armor. At south, it's impossible, no mobile reserve, no tank. Soviet tanks cut all italian supply lines while another overwhelming attack is launched against italian frontline. Retreat is the only way. In January, when also hUngarians at north had fallen, Alpini corps retreated for last.
As you see, no story. Alternative? A shorter line to guard,more troop on line, mobile reserves, tanks....italians had nothing of it, they could only lose.

I appreciate Osprey books, too, and they have an adequate space in my private library on history (I am reaching the decision point if the remaining empty space at home is for books or for myself)

bye

Lupo

 

Osprey Books - cant say i have read any, or if i have, i dont recall them. Can you recomend any about Italy?
Thanks

------------------
Mussolini

"Blood alone moves the Wheels of history." Benito Mussolini.

"What the proletariat needs is a bath of blood." Benito Mussolini, speech in Milan, July 22, 1919

"Liberty is a duty, not a right"
--Benito Mussolini

 

Dear Lupo: Thats correct, they did stand and fight and were hevily out-numbered. What their problem was, was that they had lousy officers, lousy food and shelter. They were also out-gunned. These were some of the best units the Italians had. Trouble is, poor leaders do not make good soldiers.

As for the question on Osprey books, all of their titles are very interesting, especially the ones on the Germans in WW2, there are some 25 titles on the Germans I believe.

 

Italy has been quite neglected by Osprey which only six months ago has finally published the first book dedicated to Italian Army in WWII (it covers European Fronts and it's the first of three- Man-at-Arms 340-quite good, anyway!). Before, Italian forces were partially named in volumes dedicated to Resistance and Minor axis in Yugo and Russia.
An interested one could be the number dedicated to Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1936 but it's full of errors.

If we want to talk about quality of italian officers it was effectively quite low for lacks in selection and training and this was present either for regular and reserve ones.
A never named but always present high difficulty was the lack of a real professional NCO's class as present in britsh and german armies (I 've heard that Russians suffered of the same trouble, too)

Bye

Lupo

 

I think the trouble with lack of good Officers and NCO's, was due to the fact that "Benny" had his hand too far into thier affairs-that seems to happen alot with dictators-i.e. uncle adolf.

 

General concensus here, under competant leadership, the Italian soldier could put up a good fight. F.W. Von Mellenthin (Panzer Battles) says the same thing as Rommel. The equipment used also played a part in their performance. In the latter part of the war, some Italian units were supplied with Tiger tanks. That's right. But due to poor leadership, they were lost or confiscated after Italy's change of alliegence.

------------------
Tschuss