Italians as Allies

Only because they used our weapons.

 

Do you mean the Axis guns went Bing while the Allies' went Bang? Was that what made the difference?

 

When you think about it, the Italians are very smart race.
When they realized that the germans were losing power they quickly sided with the Allies. Very smart thinking by the Italians. The germans think there the super race, but i think the Italians were more super back then.

 

Jeez. . Like weapons made the only difference in fighting. I guess that the motivations like morale,better rations,leadership and fighting for the right side and government had nothing to do with it. The partisans and some of the troops fighting with the Allies were still using thier own weapons not weapons provided by the Allies. When properly motivated and lead and fighting alongside troops from other armies,both Axis and Allied,they showed they could do quite well.

 

One difference between pre and post 8/9/1943 Italian troops is that the first were mostly conscripts, the second volunteers. When it comes to motivation that's a huge difference.

 

Exactly. Like I said they had different motivations.

 

Also the officer corps was made different, relationships between the officers and men were recast, etc, etc. Whether the weapons went bing or bang is irrelevant

 

That is so very true Za. Here is another good example of Allied cooperation involving Italian troops.

HISTORY OF TASK FORCE 45
(29 July 44 to 28 January 45)
HISTORY OF TASK FORCE 45

 

Hi all;
There is an excellent book on the Italian Campaign-"Day Of Battle" by Rick Atkinson.
I think that the Italians have gotten a bum rap with the "lack of martial prowess" cliche (say! Wasn't most of the Afrika Corps actually Italian? And on the other side, didn't the Italian Partisans do the Reich some massive damage?).

From an Earlier post;
Kai;
The Med campaign was Winston Churchill's idea and was seen by some as a sidehow. Events proved Churchill was correct in that the Italian people turned on Mussolini. THe Italian Army of WWII seems to have been less than enthusiastic players on the Axis team and tended to readily surrender to Allied forces(this is no stain on their honor-Fascism just did not TAKE in Italy like it did in Germany for a variety of reasons). Knocking Belle Italia out of the war deprived the Third Riech of badly needed manpower as well as oil and was probably a very good idea.Amazon.co.uk: The Italian Army 1940-45: Italy 1943-45 v. 3 (Men-at-arms): Philip S. Jowett, Stephen Andrew: Books The Italian Army of WWII had leadership, doctrinal and armament problems but-as with the Soviet military-they were learning. Winston did well to knock them out of the war and to create yet another Partisan War in the NAZI rear. https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...ing98/OSS.html The phrase"Succeeded beyond all expectation" could be applied.
http://books.google.com/books?id=J3l...sult#PPA157,M1
Hometown Has Been Shutdown - People Connection Blog: AIM Community Network
JeffinMNUSA
PS. The "Bella Ciao" song of the Italian partisans.YouTube - Bella Ciao
PS. The Italian Partisan movement; https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v41i5a06p.htm
PSS> And moving song of the French Resistance; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUZWl...eature=related
Last edited by JeffinMNUSA; September 30th, 2008 at 09:42 PM.

 

.

I really don't think that Italy were such a big supplier of oil to Germany. It was tough enough for them to supply their own military especially the navy as stated in the posts above.

 

1) There's a good rub in there, after all what was the motivation for Giuseppe Soldato to go die in the Russian Steppes to save Hitler's bacon, or what was the point of dieing in North Africa? For more rocks and sand when there was so much to do in their own country? Given proper motivation Giuseppe was as good as any other, in the regular or irregular army.

2) Robert is right, deprived of what Italian oil? Sorry for the nitpick

3) and thanks for the music

 

Scuse me;
I guess the Atkinson point was; "bringing the Allied bomber forces closer to the to the Romainian oil fields and to the Axis supply lines. As well as shutting off the Mediterranean sea to Axis shipping and opening the supply line to Russia through Iran." I would also mention bringing Allied shipping closer to the Insurgents in Greece and Yugoslavia (mostly SERBIANS fighting NAZIs in Yugo!). And if Guiseppe made a terrible Fascist I say "GOOD ON YOU GUISEPPE!" It bothers me that those dads in my hometown who probably shuffled boxes during WWII (there is a lot of lying about war records) made jokes and looked down their noses at "the wop soldiers" of WWII. Then the Partisans of Northern Italy are barely known outside of Italy (and the new spike lee movie portrays them as cowards)-it takes a lot of raw courage to take arms against a murderous regime in it's own backyard.
JeffinMNUSA

 

I agree. But some of that "raw courage" unfortunately was turned against some of thier fellow Partisans . A mini Civil war.

 

JC;
The Red vs. Royalist skirmishing was a pattern in all the Partisan brush fires. Then there were the Quisling troops both local and from other parts of the NAZI empire-was it Rockefeller who boasted that "You can hire one half of the population to kill the other half"? Well this was NAZI policy. Curious that many NAZI policies seem to have derived from the darkest corners of North and South American histories (ie. mass slavery, mass exterminations, mass robbery etc) Matinee qualified heroes are pretty hard to find in the whole ugly story-but they are there. http://www.theboot.it/tbfr_reviews.htm
JeffinMNUSA

 

Thats true. Greece being another good example. But some put more effort into fighting their fellow countrymen rather then the common enemy.The Germans. Specifically the Communists saw it as a chance to grab as much territory so as to remove the opposition. How much sooner would the Germans been pushed out or harassed if all could have worked towards the common goal?

 

JC;
Vasily Grossman delineates into how similar the Communist system is to the Fascist system in his grim novel "Life and Fate." http://www.berdichev.org/life_and_fate.htm It's really only a matter of degree, and the fact that the Western countries sided with the Reds during WWII was only a matter of wartime expediency (Did Stalin really kill more Russians than Hitler? Quite possibly; http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm ). To have been on the ground in a three way war between Fascists, Communists, and the various "good guys" (that would be "The Nationalists" in my estimation) must have been a pretty unenviable situation for the majority of normal human beings struggling to survive. For the most part the Reds prevailed in these struggles. Italy, France and Greece were lucky in that the Nationalists came out on top in the end-this in no small part due to the presence of the Western Allies. The Nationalists and Reds did make common cause in some cases but there was always the tension, and once the Fascists were gone it exploded into an all out war for power. Given the power hungry ideological bent of the Reds it could not have been otherwise.
JeffinMNUSA
PS. Whatif? What if the Reds and Nationalists would have made common cause across the board-from Ukraine to Southern France? For certain the costs of occupation would have risen hugely-at what point could such an event have ruined the Reich?

 

about italian Co-belligerant army:

OPERATION HERRING (1945)
On March 26th, 1945, Gen MacCreery, commander of the VIII British Army asked the "FOLGORE" combat group to pick 5 officers and 100 paratroops from the “NEMBO” Regiment who would volunteer for an important airborne operation. A similar request was also forwarded to the “F” Recon Squadron.
The “NEMBO” formed a century divided into 4 platoons of 3 squads each, commanded by Tenente Guerrino Ceiner; the first 3 platoons got the number of their original battalions while the fourth was formed with volunteers from the artillery Coy, mortars Coy, Engineers and Carabinieri. In total the unit was composed by 5 officers, 13 NCOs and 93 paratroops.
The “F” Squadron formed a century, led by Cap. Gay, Sqdn. Commander, ordered in 12 patrols with an overall number of 9 officers, 14 NCOs and 90 paratroops. At the beginning of April, the paratroopers were subjected by an intense special training under the care of Maj. Ramsey from the Parachute Regiment. Particular attention was dedicated to the training to night fighting and sabotage.
Given the importance of the mission, Italian paratroops tested all automatic weapons used by the Allied troops, but the choice fell upon the more reliable M.A.B. 38/A, the "mitra Beretta", while pistols, daggers and explosives came from the standard equipment of British Special Forces. The training was concluded with drops made with British jump gear and American aircraft at Gioia del Colle.
On April 19th, Maj. Ramsey briefed the commanders of the airborne patrols who were to take part in the operation called “Herring”, which consisted of a jump behind enemy lines south of the Po river. The “NEMBO” century was assigned the DZ among Poggio Rusco (Mantova) and Revere-Ostiglia on the Po, while to the “F” Squadron century was assigned an area more southwards, among Mirandola, Medolla, S. Felice Sul Panaro and Finale Emilia. The goal of the mission was to attack withdrawing enemy troops, sabotaging of telephone lines, creation of obstacles on the withdrawal path of the enemy and, last but not least, the saving of bridges and other structures that might be useful to the progression of the Allied advance.
Between 8.45 and 9.15 pm, 14 C-47 aircraft took off from Rosignano-Solvay airport (near Leghorn). Before they left, Gen. McCreery sent the paratroops a wireless with good wishes that was underlined with the importance of the mission in the context of the final offensive on the Italian front. At drop-time, the aircrafts were hailed by intense flak, and in spite of the difficult conditions, the jumps took place regularly, at a height between 3000 and 1000 feet.
The 8 planned DZs weren’t clearly individuated and some patrols even landed 40 kilometres far from the expected landing point. The enemy’s reaction was very violent but the paratroops, acting by initiative, scattered in groups of 2, 3, or 4 men, fighting bravely even without any link. The enemy was attacked everywhere, sabotaging, ambushing motor-convoys, barring or mining withdrawal paths, destroying vital logistic centers, emplacements, HQs, defusing mines and explosives placed by the Germans to slow down the Allied advance.
This action, which lasted 36 hours, was carried on in the following days as well and ended with important achievements. The ascertained German losses were:
481 dead and 1083 prisoners
44 means of transport destroyed or immobilized
150 captured including 6 armoured cars, two tanks and five guns
77 telephone lines destroyed and 3 bridges saved.
In spite of the importance of the mission and of its achievements, the paratroops’ losses were limited to the loss of 19 men belonging to the "NEMBO" century and 12 from the "F" Squadron century, circa ten were wounded. Among the many acts of bravery that stand out are those of Sottotenente Franco Bagna and Private Amelio De Juliis, to the memory of whom was assigned the Golden Medal (MOVM). Among those who were killed was a British Sergeant by the name of Job. Some civilians were also shot by the Germans, as were a few Italian soldiers finished off by their foes after surrender, all of which were executed in reprisal to the killing of some German prisoners operated by a group of paras

 

Jack;
THe Italians were the best Allies the Americans could have had in 1945; consider that there were 300.000 Italian partisans operating in the German rear in Northern Italy-not to mention the cheering crowds in Rome and several NAZI divisions tied down in the mountain fighting to the North. The Italian people-God bless 'em- rallied to the Allied cause. Churchill's strategy was absolutely correct.
JeffinMNUSA
PS. It's a pity about Benito Mussolini-he stands as a tragic hero in an age of villians.
PSS. 300,000 Partisani to the enemy's rear?
JEffinMNUSA.

 

mmh 330.000 partisans seems too many maybe considering also informators, spies and so on. But i think no more than 80.000 fighters However the partisans casualities were around 50.000 dead

 

Jack;
300,000 is the number I have been hearing; Italian resistance movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is generally accepted that the Italian uprising redeemed the honor of Belle Italia during WWII. It is unfortunate-and historically incorrect- that the American film director Spike Lee chose to portray the Italian resistance in an unsympathetic light recently. What is the military value of a huge guerrilla resistance in the enemy rear? Well Radio Moscow recently admitted that "The Great Patriotic War" was indeed a two front war.
JeffinMNUSA