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Jedwabne Massacre Film Ignites Hatred

Discussion in 'Concentration, Death Camps and Crimes Against Huma' started by GRW, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    There's just no hope for some people.
    "It was a terrible revelation that sparked outrage and soul-searching across Poland when it emerged a full fifty years after the atrocity was committed.
    The massacre of hundreds of Jews in a Polish village in World War Two had not in fact been carried out by the Nazis - but by their very own people who lived among them.
    Now a controversial new film examining the treachery in Jedwabne threatens to re-open those barely healed wounds that have devastated and divided a nation.
    Aftermath, which premiers in the United States on Friday, has already left its non-Jewish star Maciej Stuhr fearing for his safety after being the subject of anti-semitic attacks.
    Its producer has also been blacklisted by the country's national film council, which initially agreed to help fund the project but is now issuing legal proceedings for alleged breach of contract.
    The truth behind the massacre was unknown for decades, but came to light in the 2001 book by Princeton University historian Jan Gross entitled Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland.
    Until then, it was thought the Nazis were responsible - as stated on a plaque in the village which locals walked past for half a century knowing, but not revealing, the reality.
    That truth being that on July 10, 1941, a crowd of Christian Poles hunted down 300 to 400 of their Jewish neighbours, closed them in a barn and set it alight, burning them alive.
    A government commission investigated the matter and determined that it was in fact Poles who were to blame for the killings, albeit with the authorisation of the Nazis."
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2480159/New-WW2-film-Aftermath-reveals-shame-Polish-town-Jedwabne-Jews-slaughtered.html#ixzz2jGNAhEMf
     
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  2. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Unfortunately folk tend to forget the Poles had their own problems with the jews pre world war 2 and had enacted some pretty bad anti jewish laws in the thirtees. We like to relegate this when we discuss Poland. As many in UK would if we had today's access to the world, have questioned our commitment to Poland and going to war with Poland as an excuse.
     
  3. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Jews have been persecuted all over the place since before old JC was stuck to two sticks and left to dry. Aspects of some Orthodox can be difficult to accept and lead to needless strife within a mixed society.
     
  4. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    They certainly have, but in 1930's Poland it was government sponsored and if ww2 had not come along who knows where this road would have taken them..It was nothing less than a program in same way as Germany, Left a few years and no war and I would not want to be Jewish in Poland or Germany.
     
  5. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    Mussolini passed some racial laws as well, considering that anti-Semitism is weak in Italy one wonders what inspired him to do it, him do it as it didn't gain him any popularity and cost him some very good brains.
     
  6. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Before we start damning the Poles, let's not forget that western Europe and the US had some bad history there as well. We slammed the door in a lot of Jewish faces who wanted to emigrate as things went bad in Germany.
     
  7. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Slamming the door is one thing KB...and we in UK are as guilty as that, Anti Semitism was rife in individuals everywhere...in England in times of Edward the first there were uncalcuable massacres..

    What I am talking of though, is laws enacted to stop jews practising trades, removing them from government departments, and banning then from doing things in Poland. That is a state thing, not and individual act of anti semitism, Poland was going in my view same way as Germany. WW2 saved the Poles reputation in that area.
     
  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I've never understood antisemitism. As a rule, Jews, left alone, tend to be very productive people who value education and hard work and tend to integrate themselves into a nation- a net asset for any culture. That was largely the case in Germany, until the rise of Nazism. I can not grasp how public opinion was reversed in such a short amount of time.

    In Eastern Europe, Jews tended to be pushed into separate enclaves and when you do that people tend to dress differently, talk differently, form their own closed business arrangements and so on. Not by choice, but forced by circumstance - and the more "different" you are then the more suspicion and hatred is aroused.

    A similar process is happening today where Islamic immigrants in Europe are being pushed into their own housing developments instead of spread out where they might integrate quickly - I'm thinking mostly of France here, but it's happening all over.
     
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Antisemitism existed in Germany in and prior to WWI. From what I've read both the German and AustroHungarians undertook studies that were suppose to show that the Jews were under represented in their militaries during WWI. When the results showed that they were over represented the studies were quietly buried. I suspect the fact that Jewish communities were more successful than the average for most of the countries they were in was one of the reasons. I.e. Jealousy was a big factor. The fact that due to Church rules Christians were forbidden to charge interest lending money for much of the previous millennia was also likely a reason. It's easy to make the banker the bad guy if you don't manage your money properly.
     
  10. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Declaring eaters of pork as "unclean" and avoiding "goy" or gentiles, does not endear the more "orthodox" to the general population, anywhere. Regardless of any banking.
     
  11. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    Jews "integrate" only up to a point, they still remain a separate entity, setup separate schools and distinct shops to take care of their religious dietary requirements and even a separate justice system when allowed to, this makes them an easy target for xenofobic rabble rousers. A similar thing happens with the Rom (gipsies) that were persecuted by the nazis just like the Jews but benefitted from post war propaganda a lot less and are still regarded as "undesirables" by large segments of the European population without the stigma that anti-Semitism brings. The distinction between non integration and racism is a subtle one, it's very easy to turn "different" into "better".

    The European Jews had an additional disadvantage in that they specialized in trades that made them high visibility targets, and usually ended up with a high percentage of high money "jobs", just as the marginality of the Rom to the general economy makes them vulnerable in today's money centric society. The Catholic church was also not totally blameless, the "god killer" myth was usually tolerated if not encouraged.

    What is happening with the Islamic immigrants is too soon to tell, immigrants tend to stick together and naturally end up in low income areas, integration is a slow process that takes multiple generations, and can really reach the final stage only when the incoming flow ends, witness the US "melting pot" difficulty of dealing with Hispanics that, as far as I know, have no reluctance to integrating.

    The Chinese, are a bit of a middle ground, while definitely slower to integrate than other groups they are a bit of a paradox as their country of origin is now a superpower not an underdeveloped nation, and the to make things more complex other non Chinese asiatics like Vietnamese and Philippinos are integrating quite well in Europe and most Europeans cannot distinguish a Vietnamese from a Chinese,
     
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  12. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

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    Can you say west coast Japanese?

    I fear that you scrape the surface of any of us and we are not much different. And I include the Nazi's of WWII in that statement.

    If indeed any good comes from WWII it will be to alert us of our darker nature and the ease with which those in authority can control us.

    KTK
     
  13. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    To some perhaps but if they are avoiding social contact with others then how are said others hearing the claims that they are "unclean". Indeed I would suspect that medieval jews weren't all that forward with said claims. The church claiming they were responsible for the death of Christ on the other hand was rather inflammatory.
     
  14. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Children.

    Children play on the streets. Children hear their parents speaking, and regurgitate ideas spoken behind closed doors to peers. Teasing and name-calling. A reflection of the real world.

    "I can't play with you, because my mom/dad says you are unclean."

    It's actually fairly common in mixed areas containing orthodox, and needs deft handling, or will cause serious strife.

    When your child comes home crying, you remember why.
     
  15. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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  16. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I grew up among 2nd and 3rd generation working class immigrants in Detroit. There was no difference between Irish and Poles and Jews and Greeks and Italians, or at least the Jewish families were no more different than the other ethnic groups were from each other. There was no tension at all between those groups - mostly because they weren't groups. All our dads were blue collar workers and we all lived in the same neighborhood, and anybodies mother was likely to grab your ear if you got out of line.

    Contrast that with the black community in Detroit. They did live in different neighborhoods and that separation bred distrust.
     
  17. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Was it at the time? At least in Eastern Europe many Jews lived in their ghettos and wouldn't have been playing much with non Jewish children. As per Kodiak's statement I haven't seen that problem occur much in mixed neighborhoods here in the US. There perhaps was a hint of it between Catholics and others but not enough to stop us from playing. Not that someone refusing to play with someone else will cause that sort of reaction much either. They might be a bit confused about the "unclean" part but from what I've seen most kids see refusal to play as the loss of the other kid unless it's a significant majority that closes ranks against them.
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    I'd suggest to you then that these were not strongly Orthodox.
     
  19. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Or at least they don't fit your definition of the above. Which raises the question just how many do? Indeed how many children do? Certainly I heard comments from Catholics when I was growing up to the effect of I wouldn't be going to Heaven because I wasn't a Catholic. I never got upset about it and neither did anyone else I saw. It suggest to me that there is more than a little bias at work here.
     
  20. green slime

    green slime Member

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    The greatest differences within strains of Orthodoxy involve the following issues:
     

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