Lancaster III LM368 - 101 Squadron

I am looking for information on the subject aircraft which was severely damaged by flak and fighters on the December 2, 1943 mission to Berlin. The aircraft lost about 48 square feet of the metal underside of the starboard wing and about 14 feet were missing from the port wing. This aircraft successfully returned to base at Ludford Magna, despite the severe damage as well as the loss of two engines.

Thanks

Leslie

 

You may want to search through this man's site. I put the dates in and there was a huge number of Lancasters lost that night but yours was not listed however they may not count them as written off if they return to base and then are struck off charge.

Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers

 

I can only so far find the basic information ie built by Avro's at Yeadon, ABC-equipped and used by 101 as 'SR-I' during the 'Battle of Berlin', thence ( minus ABC ) to 467 Squadron, 50 Squadron, then to 1653 CU, 1660 CU, 1668 CU and finally being SOC on 9th January 1947.....

 

Leslie I don't understand, the info I have says that LM368 (SR-N2) crashed at Rehfelde on Dec 3rd 1943 and that the crew is buried in Berlin. (Murrell crew). Can you confirm?

 

I have obtained the Lancaster's identification number from the 101 squadron orbs. Is it possible that there may have been an error in their recording? This aircraft, according to the orbs, was the one flown by my father on Dec. 2/43, was severely damaged as previously stated, however did return to base. My father is still alive so perhaps the id# is incorrect.

Leslie

 

Is the calling code also SR-N2? I will try to get more elements. It was a Lancaster III right? Two other Lancs from 101 were lost the same night (SR-P and SR U2) but we are looking four a damaged one, so none of these. Does the ORB say how many aircrafts took off from Ludford?

 

To answer the questions posed.

I do not know what the calling code of LM368 was, it simply shows that id and "B".
With respect to the night of Dec. 2/43 21 aircraft left Ludford Magna and 2 were reported missing.
Lancaster III JB128 "U2"
S/L H. Robertson, Sgt. S.T. Jones, Sgt. J.W.R. Hill, Sgt. J. Ferguson, Sgt. J. English, F/L R.S. Lester, Sgt. F.G.T. Fennell, F/S L. H. Fox, comments in the orb, Aircraft missing - nothing heard since takeoff.
LancasterIII LM364 "N2"
Sgt. L.V. Murrell, Sgt. E. North,Sgt.R.W. Webb, Sgt. R.W. Hayes, Sgt. R.H. Kirby, Sgt. J. Oockroft??? (could be Cockroft its a little smudged) Sgt. J.W. Garland, Sgt. T.C. Bramley

There is no record of LM368 recorded in the orbs for December 3/43 nor are any aircraft reported missing.

Leslie

 

ok, I will check further, this could mean that we are looking for SR-B (all 101 Lancs started with SR , so the orbs often skipped the squadron code and just used the specific i.d.) I will also check the crew buried in Berlin and see if they are from 101.

 

a small notation :

15 losses by the German LW night fighter force, 6 single engine Bf 109G and Fw 190A's from JG 301 and the Fw's from JG 302.

43 RAF bombers claimed, of these 2 B-17's, 5 of the number were Lancasters claimed by single engine fighters from I. and III./JG 300 in 109G's and the others from Fw 190A's of II. and III./JG 302.

the Allied attack seemed to be multi-faceted in approach and leaving the targets as the LW seems thrown off but yet by claims seemed to get within the RAF bomber units.

For the unit JG 300 this was the first mission since November 26, 1943, weather was especially poor for the single seaters even with their good eyes of the Wilde Sau. Fw's of JG 300 flew up with only 4 of them making contact. the report from the official JG 300 data base is convuluted as it gives only 2 official kills, the first by Lt. Werner Treusch over a Lancaster. Ofw. Kurt Eschenbach claimed another Lanc but was hit by return fire of the bomber and had to make a belly landing. So the report does not agree with the "official" LW listing stating that Bf 109G's of I and III. gruppe made the kills.
JG 302 made a total of 10 claims minimum but it was knocked down to the number 3.

 

According to Bomber Command Diaries 458 Aircraft consisting of 425 Lancasters 18 mosquitoes and 15 Halifaxes were involved in the mission to Berlin on Dec 2/43. They record the Germans identified Berlin as the target 19 minutes before Zero hour and many fighters were waiting. Incorrectly forecast winds scattered the bomber stream, particularly on the return flight and the Germans scored further victories here. A total of 40 bombers were lost consisting of 37 Lancasters 2 Halifaxes and 1 Mosquito. 460 (Australian) Squadron lost 5 of its 25 Lancasters on this night including the aircraft carrying 2 newspaper reporters,Captain Grieg of the Daily Mail and Norman Stockton of the Sydney Sun.

 

am still looking for the Mosquito claim Leslie. Major Lent of great renown of Stab./NJG 3 claimed 1 Stirling. the Halifax downing seem to be right on the mark. Hauptmann Willi Herget claimed 2 B-17's over Berlin a simple mistake of ID which was common for the LW as well as the RAF at night. Feldwebel Meißner of II./NJG 3 claimed 2 Lancs west of Hannover

This eve is really one of only handfuls of eves that the LW and RAF kills to losses were matched closely. Of course I am discounting the Flak arm which surely must have damged/shot down RAF craft.

 

I confirm that the Murrell crew (SR-N2) lost on Dec 3 rd 1943 and buried at Berlin was from 101 Squadron: CWGC :: Casualty Details

same thing for the Frazer-Hollins crew (SR-p) :CWGC :: Casualty Details

The third crew was the Roberstson crew from SR-U2 and they were all taken pow.

I am thinking that SR-B could really be the Lanc you are looking for. I will see if I have anything about this (I will look among the written off aircrafts)

 

Leslie where was the Lancaster actually hit near Berlin on the route or after the bombing run heading for home ? this may be a difficult one to answer but .......... who knows it may just help for a locator ?

 

Erich,

Here is the description of the attack as told by my father. "As we commenced the run up into the target, Archie called (rear gunner) "There's a Messerchmitt 110 tailing us Skip!" I said, "Keep a sharp eye on him Archie! I'm on my bombing run!" Archie said "Oh, he's disappeared" I said "Watch for him because he may just be getting away from the target area!" As we are on the run up into the target and the bomb aimer says "Bombs Away!", the aircraft makes the lurch and WHAM! we were hit by a flak burst and man it was a damn good near miss. It blew a hole through the dinghy, which we didn't know about for some time. It was on the starboard side, just outside the fuselage. The aircraft filled with the smell of cordite and I temporarily lost control. The aircraft just took off on me and started diving down toward the target.
I wrestled with the controls and gradually reclaimed control of the aircraft, although we had lost over 6000 feet following the ack ack strike.
As he continued to try to control the aircraft the fighter returned. The damage was such that they could not take any evasive action and the crew had been advised to be prepared to bail out.
Archie yelled, "Skip, that bastard Messerschmitt is back!" I said, "Watch him Archie because I've got a hell of a time trying to keep this airplane level and no way can I take evasive action!" All of a sudden all hell broke loose. Archie said "he's attacking skip! he's firing at us and I'm firing back!" I can hear oxygen bottles exploding and other racket associated with bullet impact. A bullet went through between my legs at crotch level and hit the steering pedestal and ricocheted up through the windshield, more came up between the engineer and me, we were sitting about 10 inches apart.
Arche yelled "I got the bastard, I got the bastard Skip!" and then everything was quiet.
Archie was only awarded a probable kill for this but through the research of Dr. Theo Boiten of the Netherlands, I learned were most probably attacked by a Lt. Erich Rohrbach of 7/NJG5, who was shot down that same night at Zepernik, north of Berlin from return fire from a Lancaster. Rohrback was KIA but both his crfew members baled out safely. This, if true, would indicate were likely attacked by a JU88 and not an ME110.

How does this compare to your research?
Kind regards
Leslie

 

Excellent account Leslie ! now to finish up the story.

7./NJG 5 Leutnant Erich Rohrback killed, one other crewmember bailed out wounded. Obergefreiter Ernst Hoch bailed out wounded.

Flew Bf 110G-4 coded : C9+GR, werke nummer 740078

shot down in air combat over Zepernich north of Berlin

E ~

 

all I am going to throw Michaels fantastic site out here again as he has had some latest updates which I usually gt a personal email about.

GYGES Publishing Company

hit research and go through the many many pages slowly, maps, diagrams, photos, lists beyond belief. Access to the BA/MA listings titles.

this really has to be one of the highest grade sites dealing with radar of the KM and LW on the web but also in return with RAF electronic measures, counter and ............well just go visit and then bookmark it

 

Thanks Erich

Would you have any information or details about FW Erwin Egelar with StabIV/NGJ1 who was shot down in air combat and crashed at Treysa 19/20 Oct. 1944. This is the man who Theo says, was probably responsible for shooting my father's aircraft down on Aug. 12/13, 1944 on his return fromthe Russelsheim mission.
While sorting through my fathers military documents, I came across a memo to the Air Ministry dated March 4, 1947 which stated the following:
On the 29th of Feb. 1947, a visit was paid to Drohn K50/L4140 where the Burgermeister and various local people were interviewed and the following information obtained:
1. This aircraft crashed in flames near the paper mill at Drohn at approximately 23oo houtrs on the 12th August 1944
2. Four very badly burned bodies were taken from the wreckage, one being identified as the officer Pullin
3. The four bodies were put in one coffin and buried in the local cemetary
4. The grave has been registed by 40GRU It is in a well kept condition and is located just on the left of the entrance to the cemetary and marked with one white cross bearing the inscription: Hier ruhen view anglische amerik. Fleiegers Gefallen 12.8.44
5. Is of my opinion that exhumation would prove of no avail in this case and that communal registration should be made.
6. Form 3372 to this effect has now been raised.
7. May this case now be considered closed.

I believe they did exhume the coffin as the registered burial site now is the Rheinberg War Cemetary.

Kind regards
Leslie

 

let me check further, in regards to the fallen, one thing could be written and indeed be processed, but what truly happened could be another story altogether. this was indeed very common. not to get off subject but I was told that the nuns in the neighboring convent removed my cousin from his crashed 190 the day after the air battle of 26 Nov. 44, and then had him buried. In truth his crash was observed by a local LW 2cm fla unit, the crash seen and written up but nothing to retrieve his body nor contents after the burn died down. Reality in was 1947-1949 the field in which my cousin crashed, the owners son found the Fw 190 wreckage and had my cousin buried at the local Holtensen Friedhof.

crazy

 

Leslie is the LW pilots last name spelled correctly ? I see for Oct. 9./10. 44 a Leutnant Fengler from IV./NJG 1 shoots down a Lancaster for his 10th victory.

nothing for NJG 1 at all for the night of 19/20, 1944 October.

for the eve of 12/13 August 44 13 claims done up by IV./NJG 1 with Schnaufer claiming 3 Lancasters of the total, none by the name of Egelar. Theo of course has more specific info

 

whoa slap me silly..............here he is for September 19/20, 1944

22.55hrs over Mönchengladbach, 1 Lancaster for Feldwebel Egelars 2nd victory

10/19-20/44

Fw. Erwin Egelar
Unteroffizier Alois Hermanns
Gefreiter Lothar Schubert

all KIA in a crash after air combat. Bf 110G-4 coded : G9+CZ wrk nummer 110152 over Treysa. Served in 12./NJG 1