Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Lend Lease, how accurate is this?

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe February 1943 to End of War' started by chromeboomerang, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. chocapic

    chocapic Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    48
    Thanks alot for links.

    In the first link I don't understand why the first chart mentions no imported trucks until 1943 when the 3rd chart shows 17.400 dodge, ford etc trucks and 9.200 towing vehicules delivered in 1942 :confused:

    Anyway my source giving an overall domestic prodction below 500.000 looks way off.

    In the 2nd link, the last chart gives a sum not to far(more like 13-14.000 I guess) from the 12.000 I mentioned.

    About the Normandie Niemen, looks like they did not fought before 1943 http://www.acesofww2.com/Normandy-Niemen/Normandie-Niemen.htm

    BTW one of their Yak3 is still on display near Paris and in a pretty good shape, I saw it few years ago, she's a beauty [​IMG]
     
  2. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,368
    Likes Received:
    335
    That seems to fit in with what my link says, created December 4th 1942. This probably deserves a thread of it's own.
     
  3. chocapic

    chocapic Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    48
    yeah, or we could merge the 2 subject by saying these French pilots, when given the choice of their weapons, favored the Yak over lend leased Spitfires or Airacobras.
     
  4. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,368
    Likes Received:
    335
    Indeed, good point. One of these days I'll put together a uniform for one of these chaps.
     
  5. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,321
    Likes Received:
    460
    Good link Chocapic you beat me to it :D
     
  6. Fortune

    Fortune Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    0
    the yak was a very sturdy and stable platform, i would choose it as a "workhorse", but i still am attached to the spitfires
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    372
    Location:
    Portugal
    Given the choice? What choice? This is the Red Army, you fight with what you are issued! As if it were any different in other peoples air forces ;)
     
  8. chocapic

    chocapic Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    48
    Given the choice? What choice? This is the Red Army, you fight with what you are issued! As if it were any different in other peoples air forces ;) </font>[/QUOTE]sorry Za but you are wrong, please check by yourself, their foreign volunteers status allowed them to choose between all planes available, including lend leased cobras and spitfires.
     
  9. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,368
    Likes Received:
    335
    The Soviets proposed giving them lend lease aircraft, they asked for their best soviet equivilants instead.
     
  10. chocapic

    chocapic Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    48
    I've read they started with the Yak 1, but I think it was in fact the improved Yak 1B, which was an excellent plane at this time.

    However they flew the Yak 9 and ended the war with Yak 3.

    At the end of the war, survivors were allowed to get back home with their planes, it was a special present from Stalin.
     
  11. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,321
    Likes Received:
    460
    And people say that Stalin had no heart :D
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Messages:
    8,809
    Likes Received:
    372
    Location:
    Portugal
    Now that was a surprise! I didn't know that.
     
  13. chocapic

    chocapic Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    48
    neither did I a few days ago [​IMG]
     
  14. Heartland

    Heartland Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    3
    Eh? For earlier Yak-1 and Yak-7s I agree. The later Yak-9 and Yak-3 fighters had great performance and was every bit the equivalent of current Spitfires, probably a lot better than the banged-up and used older Marks the Soviets were getting delivered.
     
  15. Heartland

    Heartland Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ah, the "inferior" P-39, one of my favourite pet peeves! :D

    The much-maligned P-39 was prefered by a wide margin by Soviet pilots. It is worth pointing out that it was only inferior at the higher altitudes the western Allies required aircraft to fight at - it was perfect for the medium- to low-altitude air superiority and intercept missions the Soviets used them for while supporting tactical bombers and support aircraft. At these altitudes the P-39 was on par with the 109s and and FWs, with good speed, climb and maneuverability. As the war went on the Soviets field-modded or got the US manufacturer to improve the design, such as ditching the relatively useless 37mm gun. There is a distinct lack of Axis reports where they swat hapless P-39s out of the sky, quite the opposite. Not to mention that about half of the top ten Allied aces of the war flew P-39s for most of their careers...

    The Spitfires shipped to the Soviets were used and rather old. I have accounts of Soviet pilots noting the banged-up appearance and number of patched bullet-holes in the airframes they received, and this concerns old Mk.Vs in 1943, in which they are supposed to face the latest Bf-109Gs and Focke-Wulfs. At lower altitudes the wide wings of the Spit bleeds a lot of energy when turning - not a great selling point for the Soviets either.

    As for the Hurricane, one Soviet pilot noted that the Hurricane was nice for sightseeing around the countryside "...but unfortunately we were forced to appraise it from a somewhat different situation". They considered it a crap plane, basically. Rugged, but still crap. Overall I would say the Hurricane was the worst of the lot (along with the P-40) by the time of Barbarossa - it had trouble keeping up with 109s already during the Battle of Britain and got slaughtered over Malta...
     
  16. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,368
    Likes Received:
    335
    Though it did good work as a ground attack kite with various modifications (the Hurricane that is).
     
  17. ANZAC

    ANZAC Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2006
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    20
    Heartland, if you were given the choice of a Spitfire or a P-39 to take on the 109s and FWs, what would it be?
     
  18. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    5,368
    Likes Received:
    335
    Depends where and what your objective is.
     
  19. Heartland

    Heartland Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    3
    Have to agree with Stefan - depends on the mission parameters, or at least doctrine used by whomever "I" am flying for. Hard to make a blanket statement, and another very significant aspect is the state of the aircraft and what version it is, of course, like mentioned above...

    At higher (western-style) altitudes I would NOT want to be in either one of the Russian second-hand Spit Mk.V or fresher P-39s while facing 109Gs and FWs 1943-ish. But the Spit should be the preferable choice among the two, maybe. At lower (eastern-style) altitudes I would go with the P-39, which the Russians proved to be the equal of the latest Bf-109s and FWs up until 1944 at least.
     
  20. chocapic

    chocapic Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    48
    My choice would mostly depend on the color scheme. There's no way I'm gonna get seen on an ugly aircraft.

    More seriously, I agree with Heartland, the most common lend leased spit (Spitfire V) was really getting old when it was delivered, and, although it remained a very maneuverable plane, with very decent climb capabilities, and good weapons.

    But it was very slow, it could not compete with 1943, not even speaking of 1944 bf 109 (G2-various G6) nor fw 190 (A4-A5-A6-A8).

    BTW I haven't found evidence of widespread use of the Spit V on the Eastern front later than fall 1943.
     

Share This Page