Luftwaffe 1946

What if? Had Hitler not delayed jet research in 1942? What if the Luftwaffe was flying what we know as the F-86 Sabre by 1946-7 , they could have, after all, the sabre was based off german designs. Weigh in on this and other luftwaffe what ifs, had the war lasted into 1946?

 

Welcome to the forum Carl. I would say that even in 1945 Germany had enough jets to make a difference but the obstacle that existed would have existed in 1946 regardless of when Hitler would have given his blessing to the jet fighter. That obstacle was lack of jet fuel. The allied strategic bombing was and would have still been successful enough that those jets even in huge numbers would have been grounded. Another factor to consider is if the fuel shortage was not a problem, the allies already had jet fighters and had the war lasted longer, those would have been in the skies as well. So I do not think that this would have changed the outcome of the war. Hitler lost the war when he invaded Russia 1941 and created the two front war.

 

Hallo, Karl (I will call you that, with K, to make a difference between you and General Evans, OK?).

As my friend, PzJgr has nicely pointed out, the war was lost for us after the failure of taking Moscow. Certainly, Dönitz had still the posibility of finishing Great Britain but... anyway, if the Me-262 and other models would have been available by spring 1943, we would have finished with the menace of the second front, because simply ANY Allied bomber could fly over Germany or France. In 1943, we all know that the lack of addecuate escorts provoked many casualties in the bombers because of the advanced FLAK and piston aeroplanes. If we add this a lot of fast and with very heavy weaponry Me-262 then the bombers formations would have been smashed. And then Ike and Churchill would have wondered: "Is this the way to win? I do not think so..." Let's imagine that 870 bombers of the 1.000 which first bombed my beloved Cologne would have been shot down, inmediately the Western Allies would have thought their situation seriusly. Because if they would not have been able to solve that situation: Bye, bye, D-day! Then we have a safe and untouched German industry, but there was still the problem of the Eastern Front, but that is another story...

 

Herr General, you make a valid point. If the jets were available in 43, then the jet fuel shortage may not have been a factor. Good point.

 

Carl, you speak of a HUGE what if !!

From chatting with several jet pilots I can assure you the Allied bomber offensive would of been at a standstill come 1943, IF the Jets would have been employed. As to 1946 there were at least 12 different designs going through mulitiple testings, just for the day fighter version only and these were to replace the Schwalbe in JG 7 and JG 44 and EJG 2. The Meteor was not advanced enough to take on the Me 262 even in 1945 and the US air force had not fully developed any type of jet systems so we can rule both these forces out. The Soviet air forces would have been totally destroyed and there might possibly have continued the war through to 1950 at least.
The largest problem at hand in the year of 45 was that the Allied air force, and I don't mean the Soviets had an overwhelming air superiority and any living Luftwaffe a/c was pounced on while taking off or landing from their airfields. German fighter pilots had to take on odds somewhere about 20/25 to 1 or greater and had no chance really of survival except by almost pure luck. There were plenty of pilots but the shortage of fuels was of prime concern. The 262 fuels and especially the odd mix for the Me 163...... was that the jet/rocket units were wasting 1/2 of their efforts in air field moves to draw closer to their fuel reserves which were always running short. When I interviewed former Me 163 pilot Rudi Opitz, he told me that most of his mission was to aquire fuels, driving all over eastern Germany, Poland and elsewhere and still trying to stay out of range of Soviet guns......

E

 

Well, nice points, Erich. But the fuel problems for the Luftwaffe were not serious in 1943, so if a lot of Me-262 would have been available by spring of that year, they would have completely destroyed the bombers formations, along with piston-engine aeroplanes... The Red Air Force would also been smashed, but the situation in the East was already not quite good. But I think that without an invaded Italy, a still living but little DAK and without any RAF or USAAF aeroplane over Europe, all this thanks to our jets, we could have done things a little bit better. Then, we can also suposse what if the type XXI and XVII U-boats would have been available by spring 1943: bye, bye GB! But again: the most important battle was already lost: the Eastern front.

 

Heh heh--I was waiting for you to get in on this one Erich--before I spouted off and made a fool of myself--im going to wait and see a bit longer.

 

Friedrich meine Deutsch freund, please read my part about 1945 on fuels.......I did not say that there was a feul shortage in 1943 as there wasn't. Ploesti was kicking out quite a bit of raw materisl for the Reich until August of 44 where the 15th air force finally did the huge plant with it's cracking facilites in.....in fact it was of such high priority that the 15th expended itself on far too many occassions and lost hundreds of a/c against the might of single and the twin engine ZG gruppen defending the souther sphere(s).
Plain and simple and I would like to see this thread continue,:.....but if according to the 5 jet pilots I have interviewed, if the Me 262 would have been given to front line units to replace the Bf 109 and Fw 190, and if the engines had worked properly and plus the endurance needed for air to air combat, then and only then would the US/RAF air forces been eliminated. I won;t even count the Soviet threat since it never was one during the whole war.........

Treats to all

E

 

Yes, if the Germans had made a concentrated effort in the jet program, focusing on select models instead of the different types that were being produced, it could have been a turning point at least in the air war.

 

i don't mean to be a spoil sport but...between plain development, production and training times...had Hitler gone ahead with the jet program...the jets would still not have been at full strength till the fuel shortage anyway.
Just plain saying what if the germans had full strength jet groups in 43...is like saying...what if germany had jets during the battle of britain! Although it is a what if..so

 

The war in the east where many say was the doom of the German Wehrmacht, may have changed in the other direction. When I interviewed JG 7 vets about their closing ops in the Ost during April through May of 45 they just shrugged and said they were unstoppable. The pilots were flying ground attack missions primarily against Soviet MT, and also bringing down many Il-2's and Il-4's in combat. Nothing could catch the jet. I can only think of one Me 262 brought down by a Soviet ace and that is it. The jet was having engine problems anyway and was caught.
JG 7 used a fairied form of the R4M rocket which had the Panzerschreck head and powdered charge installed. The havoc they wreaked upon the Soviet columns will most likely never be really known.......if the unit had proper fuels and not ordered to withdraw to Prague and due west, who knows even in 45 what would of happened.....

E

 

What's this about fuel shortages in 1943 that has got everybody so uptight ? There weren't any simple but true until late 1944. If Hitoer had said yes to a full bore fighter program and second to bombers for the Me 262 in late 42, then by Kursk in 1943 the tide would have changed on the Ost Front. There was really no im0pact on the cities of the Reich during late 43 as everyone suggests, only after the terrible battles of winter 44 through the spring and summer did the Reich lose control of it's reserves. It's a what if Ron, but a big what if and it could of easily mattered to the outcome of WW 2.

E

 

Let's assume they had their jets (like the Me262) in 1943, the war would be over for the Soviets.
The Red Airforce would be crushed and also destroyed on the ground. Then the regular bombers could have attacked troops, tanks, ...

I don't think that fuel was a big problem by then. The number which would need to destroy the Red Airforce would be something like 800 planes.

 

Hahaha!!!

Albert, you're forgetting about the 300 divisions of the Red Army... The new weaponry (except an A-nomb) could have NOT affected the war in the East from its outcome.

 

Okay, they had 300 divisions! So what!!!!

I don't think that the Germans had 0 divisions at the eastern front
Some numbers:

# 6.550.000 soldiers in the Heer
# 1.700.000 in the Luftwaffe
# 780.000 in the Kriegsmarine
# 450.000 in the Waffen-SS

Maybe this gives you any idea that the Germans still might defeat the Red Army!

 

Although the failure to take Moscow was critical, if Germany had fully developed jet aircraft, the advantage would be a major boon to the wehrmacht. By 1945, however nothing short of the a-bomb could have saved Germany. I would say 1943 is the cutoff, considering by mid 1944 Germany had lost significant territory, manpower, and was now facing three fronts. Not to mention allies had domination of the air. A few jet fighters wouldnt have made a difference then.

 

Interesting thread...
You gents seem to be missing a major point on the fuel shortage. By even late 41, you are right- there was no major fuel shortage. But there was certainly no large surplus either! And introducing many more jets, even if the germans phased out older fighters, would do what to the existing fuel supply? The Me262 used about ten times the fuel of a normal prop fighter. As soon as the many more jets were introduced, fuel supplies would drop quickly and drastically. Thus, there may not have been a fuel shortage, but introducing hundreds of Me262s certainly would have created one.

And to assume that simply more jets could have defeated the allied air force... Even if, say, the germans could produce, fuel, pilot and arm 1,000 Me 262s each year, that would still be very little compared to allied production. In 1942 alone, the US produced over 15,000 combat aircraft. The Me262 carried a limited amount of ammunition- they could not simply shoot down everything in the sky. It certainly would have made the air war much closer, but not an automatic victory.

And another point- if the germans had introduced the Me262 earlier and in greater numbers, I would believe that the allies would quickly develope their jet programs as well. By the end of the war, the US and Britian did have prototype jet fighters; I think the US even had one that was nearly ready for production. Had the germans introduced great numbers of jets earlier, the allies would have stepped up the funding and gotten their jets into combat quicker to address the german threat.

The final issue being the eastern front- Friedrich is right on the money there. Simply introducing a jet in the east would have had little outcome on the fighting there. The germans may have had millions of men in the east (a misleading statistic to begin with); yet the russians had TENS of millions. 800 planes to defeat the red airforce? Where does that come from? The russians had a huge manufacturing base, and the 262s could not have carried enough fuel to attack back into the urals. And again, deploying the 262s on the eastern front, because of the great distances, would have consumed even greater amounts of fuel than deploying the 262 in western europe.

So I guess my overall take on this one would be logistics (again!). The introduction of many ME262s earlier would have provided the germans with some air superiority at the expense of more material shortages than they could accomodate.

[ 11 September 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

Crazy since this is a big what if anyway, what year are you talking about. As I mentioned earlier if the 262 had been introduced earlier say in 42 things would have turned out differently. By 1945 the Luft 46 conceptual designs were almost ready for test, some on the drawing board and some through trials. The Me 262 was supposed to be fazed out in a matter of moths and new Messcherschmidt and Focke Wulf designs were in the makings to be the top fighters to take on US high altitude P-51's. The Ta 152 was to take on protective duties for the jets as the y took off and landed. You have mentioned an important issue of the lack of long range of the 262 which is true but again what if the fighter force of the Luftwaffe was equipped wholly with the jet for starts. Every Geschwader overlapped in it's coverage over the Reich and the communications system in 1945 was not at a total loss so there was no probelm monitoring the activity of Luftwaffe versus Allied a/c contacts.
Alos new jet bombers were on the rise with outperforming the Arado jet in speed and long range performance. Two prototypes come to mind that were supposed to be able the far reaches of the Soviet realm without problem of interception.......isn't the What if's a kick in the butt !

E

 

Erich, on the fuel issue, I'm talking about ANY year after 1941. As soon as the germans invaded russia, their resources quickly became very strained. When we say "there was no fuel shortage in 1942", this is because everything was getting just BARELY enough fuel to function. Still, while there was no major shortage, we can see repeated examples of local shortages. By early 1943, especially fuel resources were being stretched very thin.
Now any jet fighter, wether Me262 or other newer ones, used a huge amount of fuel. In this case, the Me262 was actually lucky- it used diesel fuel rather than high-octane fuel required in propellor engines. However, the AMOUNT of fuel consumed by a jet is exponentially greater than that of a prop plane. A Me262- "With a typical fuel capacity of 1,800 liters (over 480 gallons), the range of the original Me 262 was approximately 600-650 miles (at altitude)."(from stormbirds.com), On the other hand, the P-51 Mustang, which was one of the less fuel-efficient prop planes, had a range of about 1000 miles using only 105 gallons of fuel.
Point being, jets used far more fuel for each plane than prop planes did.
Many of the points made on this thread note that there was no real fuel shortage in 41 or 42. But if more jets had been introduced earlier, the fuel to fly them would have had to come from somewhere- where? My point being, if many more jets had been introduced earlier, they would have CAUSED a massive fuel shortage. According to stormbirds.com, although over 1400 Me262s were produced, only about 300 of them ever flew- mainly due to lack of fuel. Thus we can see form later in the war the burden these jets put on the reich's fule production. How would this fuel burden have been adressed earlier? And if we are talking about MORE jets... sure the germans coul have fielded plenty more early on. They just would have not been able to field ANY tanks, trucks, prop planes, submarines, etc. because of all the fuel the jets would be consuming.

And one other issue has not been mentioned- pilots. Where would all these pilots come from? Training to fly a jet took longer than a prop plane, and was a more complex instrument. For this What If to work in that aspect, germany would have had to have a jet-fighter training program in place by 1929 to supply enough pilots.

And the final issue- jets were certainly far better in combat than prop planes. Probelm was, from every source I have checked, all the jets were also far more fragile than prop planes. They could not take anywhere near the amounts of damage. Often jets burst into flames after only one hit. Putting more jets in the air would give germany a quick edge in the air war, but what about the demands on manufacturing a steady stream of replacement jets? Again, we can't ignore the logistical side of this. Production and fuel resources were the main weakness germany had throughout the war, and an increased jet program would even further strain them.

 

Actually by fact there was plenty of pilots to fly the 262, aces and the common 11 hour instucted novice. They volunteered and were turned down. Also the Me 262 was easy to fly and did not take many hours to learn, this is through documentation we will release through our book and interviews with several KG 51 bomber pilots, one of them living in southern California that I interviewed several years ago.
Getting to the book, Kurt Welter literally forced his pilots into the cockpit of the 262 and told them to take him while on the wing around the block on the runway giving site-on instructions. After this was completed the pilot was ordered to take a flight and land and then do it again. This was before their night missions. Some very interesting reflections will be given as example in our book(s)......maybe 2 volumes.....
I do believe though if we get back to the Luftw 46 beginning of the thread some very interesting things could of probed the skies in 1946 and am not sure if the fuels had not been an issue in 45 what the Allies would have come up against. It is just as well that it never did happen. Let us not forget the importance of Ploesti and it's cracking plants.....as this was a prime feeder in all respects for the Wehrmacht both on the ground and in the air. As for the US 15th Air Force, this was of prime importance for this air arm to try all it could to eliminate the factorie(s).

E