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Mailly-le-camp may 1944

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by Kai-Petri, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Thanks for the ideas, skipper : I've just checked right through the crew listings in Searby's 'Peenemunde' book and can find no mention of either Tindall or Kraemer ( the two navigators aboard JB402 ).

    Which leads me to think that the mystery man may have transferred to PFF during his tour ( hence the gap in early 1944 ). On the other hand, it's possible that he wasn't in PFF at all ( the badge may have just been added to the e-bay lot.... ).

    I'm still convinced that he survived Mailly which is why the name is outlined in a red circle on the scarf.

    So all I know for certain is that he was a Navigator who went to Peenemunde and Mailly.....

    ( I did say it wasn't easy ! ;) )
     
  2. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    The transfer option is very possible. Did you consider the fact that he could have been wounded and off track for a couple of months (Hospital, home , leave etc...)until he recovered. I believe he must have been an evader or a pow after Mailly (why stop at 28 ops whereas the tour was only two more? ) . Are the guys from ND406 in Searby's book? I could also ask local Mailly historians in France. If your Navigator survived he must have attended memorials after 1945.
     
  3. 156Squadron

    156Squadron Member

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    A few other thoughts:
    a) Perhaps the Navigator was not the embroiderer, perhaps a friend/sweetheart who embroidered the circle after his death? (ND406 perhaps)
    b) Pathfinder crew were not permitted to wear the Pathfinder badge whilst on ops, perhaps left with the same friend?

    Have you checked the deceased Navs in your Peenemunde Book?


    Robin Riley www.156Squadron
     
  4. 156Squadron

    156Squadron Member

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    Skipper

    Pathfinder crews had to complete 45 ops for a tour.

    Regards

    Robin Riley www.156Squadron.com
     
  5. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    45 ops? wow, I didn't know that . That figure must have been almost impossible to achieve.
    Was this because there weren't enough Pathfinders crews ? It is very possible that he scarf was embroided and kept by someone else in England , but it could also have been put inside a pocket (just as the badge). Flyers were often superstitious and often kept a personnal item with them to bring luck.
     
  6. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    On those mascots...

    Patrick Gibbs "Torpedo leader on Malta"

    He also had a Panda mascot ( puppet ) with him bringing good luck.

    " To me it personified good luck. I was never ashamed to be seen walking across the aerodrome carrying my mascot!"
     
  7. 156Squadron

    156Squadron Member

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    Actually, when Bennett formed the Pathfinder Force he wanted them to agree to a 60 Ops Tour!!!! He compromised to 45 (generous person). One of his more famous quotes was "There will be no live VC winners in the Pathfinder Force". The reasoning behind the length of the tours was that these were highly trained (and experienced) crews and they wanted to get the most out of them. New crews were always being recruited from other Squadrons, usually the crews that showed promise in Navigational ability.

    The relevance for the scarf here is that some of the missions could have occurred in a non PFF Squadron. The nav would have had to complete 15 missions before he was granted his Pathfinder Badge. Not an easy achievement in itself!

    Robin Riley www.156Squadron.com
     
  8. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Good points, Robin, and ones I hadn't really considered. It's an odd 'scarf', actually - it's rather narrow ( only 3 inches ) and the cloth is rather harsh-feeling ( rather like a cotton tea-towel ). It's almostlike a cross between a scarf and a ribbon - it would easily fit folded into an inside pocket.

    It's really frustrating to sit here holding the thing - all the clues are there, but somehow the pieces just won't fit together..... [​IMG]
     
  9. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Another thing. Two pathfinder lancs were shot down at Mailly , but others participated and retuned. Therfore it would be interesting to get a list of all Navigators from both squadrons, if there is one. There shouldn't be that many candidates. I don't know if the squadrons mentionned have associations that could help.
    I confirm the mascot thing. I have hundreds of items that were taken in pockets going from walking shoes tied together with the laces, to baby clothing. A scarf would have been a very convenient item.
     
  10. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Maybe discussed before but anyway sounds rather tough...

    From Max Hastings Bomber Command ( Chapter XII Pathfinders )( a bit shortened as well )

    " In April , 97 Squadron lost only two crews in ninety-eight sorties.But their spirits plunged when word came that High Wycombe planned to recognize the ease of attacking French targets by making each sortie count only one-third of an "op" towards a manĀ“s tour. Crews with only three or four trips were appalled by the prospect that these might stretch to nine,twelve. Then, on 3 May, they went to Mailly-Le-Camp."
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Amazing! As if one life isn't worth another. It makes my respect for these airmen even higher. I suppose they had no choice anyway.
     
  12. davonich

    davonich recruit

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    OK chaps. Newly logged on to this site. My old man was on the Pathfinders lanc that was shot down on return from the raid by a night fighter. All survived thanks to the genius of the pilot Neville Sparkes. Dad was taken in by a family in Estisac and fought with resistance before liberation 6 months later. Dad was the 2nd navigator. However, my parents are no longer with us and so cannot advise whether the items are his. Will try my older sister.
     
  13. davonich

    davonich recruit

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    Sorry just to keep you all guessing. His name was George Foley
     
  14. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Got the picture! He flew JB 402 code OL-R from 83 squadron. This is great. I would love to hear the details of his stay in France. Welcome to the forum!
     
  15. davonich

    davonich recruit

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    martin

    my father George Foley was a navigator on the lanc that all survived. I think he was detailed as bomb aimer for that mission. He is now deceased but will check his log book to see if the numbers on the scarf match up.
     
  16. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Hello Dave and welcome to the Forums !

    I've just returned from 2 weeks' holiday in France and found your pm - it's very exciting to hear from someone related to a veteran of Mailly-le-Camp : please let us know if you find out more.....
     
  17. davonich

    davonich recruit

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    Gooday all from NZ. My brother has been able to get a copy of Dads citation when he got his DSO and it is complete with his war record. Quite a few pages I think. However, don't think the scarf was his as the missions didn't line up with his log book but he did do 63 missions and even had a final mission when he returned home after being liberated in France. Unfortunately you guys seem to know more than I do. Keep it up
     
  18. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Hello Dave

    Many thanks for letting us know. Congratulations on obtaining your Father's war record - it was a real achievement for anyone to survive 63 'ops'......
     
  19. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Yes congratulations Dave. The Mailly raid is one of the most famous operations of the war in France. There are big commemorations every year and many veterans still attend, despite their age. If you ever make there, it would be really worth it, don't hesitate to let the local people know who you are, they will show you around.
     
  20. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Mailly before:

    [​IMG]

    and after:

    [​IMG]
     
    Kai-Petri likes this.

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