All-righty. One point I've read somewhere- correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 262 use normal petrol fuel, not requiring any sort of special fuel? Of course, German stocks of ANY kind of fuel were drastically low by 45, so this would not really be any huge difference. This is interesting info, though, gents. I had the impression that the 262 was pretty well superior in dogfight-style fights. Learn something new everyday! Erich, on the ammo used in the 262... (if you have time, of course! ) First off, what was this "mine" shell? And, how common was it's usage? Was this the standard ammo used in the 262, and was it available regularly? A little sidetrack though... Martin, wouldn't that be the MP43? Wasn't the MP 43 the precursor to the StG 44 ? I have a tendency to get those confused...
The MP43 / MP44 / STG44 are virtually completely 'interchangeable'. The MP43 was indeed the 'first model', the MP44 had small detail production differences, the main one of which was deletion of the telescopic sight mounting. But, to all intents and purposes, the same weapon.
let's see if this will work as I tried to post three other times......pc's suck ! the jet fuel was different than the prop driven machines that's all I know. The Minen rounds were very much high explosive both the 2cm and 3cm units. The techs made them in such a way that when in contact with aluminum skin of the fighters or bombers, it would start a fire besides the high explosive effect/blast. Started to be in production in June of 44 with at least 6 different types...... this is a shortened version of my original which I will not repeat E
Were there any proppeller driven aircraft ie. P-51, F4U, F7F, etc., that downed the Mig-15 in the Korean conflict?
Also would like to know why the letter designations were changed on fighters and bombers in that conflict, ie. P-51 to F-51, A-26 Invader to B-26, etc.?
I think, wilconqr, and I may well be wrong, that it was a government thing to do with the a/c intended use F = Fighter & B = Bomnber. Change for the sake of change. I think! Hey, I got a medal.
IIRC, (and my memory is quite shaky on this one) there were kills of Mig-15's by P-51's and Spitfires, and possibly some other aircraft as well during the Korean War. But I'm very uncertain.
On August 9th, 1952 Lt. 'Hoagy' Carmichael flying a Hawker Sea Fury shot down a Mig 15 - the only such victory for a British piston-engined aircraft in the Korean conflict.
The Mig made the mistake of surrendering its performace speed in taking the sea fury on... Should have known better than to take on fleet air arm at those sort of speeds, navy are known for dragging enemy technology back to their level...Stringbags comes to mind.
Some info, on British built aircraft claims against the Me 262. The first Me 262 to be shot down by an Allied aircraft, was by Spitfires of 401 Squadron (RCAF) on the 5th November 1944. Of British fighters, the Hawker Tempest is the highest scoring with 20 credited. [ 24. May 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]
a slight correction Red, the date was October 5, 1944 when DFC Squadron leader RIA Rod Smith led the 401st squadron. The GErman pilot was outnumbered and out-manuevered, a big loss as he was a bomber pilot. Hauptmann Hans-Chrstof Büttmann of I./KG(J)51. A jet unit that was going to get it's butt kicked all over the sky over the next months of the war..... in process of hoprfully interviewing Me 262 jet killer Huie Lamb of the US 78th Fighter group soon ~E
here is the US 357th fighter group account against the Me 262 on one of their web-sites......good stuff guys ! www.cebudanderson.com/262.htm ~E
Yeah! Bud Anderson's site! I've got his book and it is one I have read! Interesting read about him and his squadron. Chuck Yeager was one of his buddies there. Feeling I get is that Fighter jocks were in general a different breed that bomber-boys. Fighter dudes stories is general are more "macho" in nature. I find the stories of the bomber boys almost always more sensitive... Anybody have the same idea?
That's a good point, Stevin. I've seen it discussed in books but only briefly. The RAF aircrew selection procedure, however harsh and arbitrary it may have seemed at the time, seems in retrospect to have been generally effective at fitting men into the most appropriate role. Virtually every memoir admits that the reason the writer entered the RAF was to fly Spitfires ! However, the attributes of say, a fighter pilot flying Hurricanes in the Battle of Britain and a bomber pilot flying to Berlin again and again in '43/'44 were very different indeed. I am just now reading N J Crisp's novelised account of his experiences as a Lancaster pilot ; in training on Harvards in the USA, he absolutely could not 'get the hang' of deflection shooting. So - into bombers he went ! Psychologically, too - the situation of flying for hours on end obeying the discipline of the 'bomber stream' , with nothing happening but the constant fear of sudden death ; whereas the fighter pilot was disciplined in a different way, but acting much more on his own initiative...
are U saying that the fighter boyz have a tremendous ego problem ? ! indeed they do ! yes I totally agree with Stevin as the US bomber vets have always taken a slighty reversed role in the assessments of the WW 2 air campaign. Just as up front as the fighter pilots but a bit quieter in tone......go get em guyz !! ~E
wilconqr, further to your question about the designation of USA a/c's check out http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/airforce/usaf_descriptions/fighter.txt Says it all far better than I can
~~ BUMPIE ~~ man I need to add, subtract or ............ hopeful others are interested in this long lost thread ?? and yes got Huies interview along with another former pilot of the 78th fg. E ~
The M-262 was the fastest plane in the sky at the time but it was not the fastest "thing" in the sky .. No sub-sonic German jet could out run the bullet from a .50 cal ... The Browning M2 could spit shells out at 3,000 feet per second up to one air mile 6076 ft. That converts to over 2,000 mph so the P-51 did not have to catch the jet all it had to do is get into the range of the jet to take it out.. [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Sometimes one hears the claim that the Tuskegee Airmen were the first to shoot [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]down German jets.11[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Three Tuskegee Airmen, 1st[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Lt. Roscoe Brown, 1st[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Lt. Earl R. Lane, [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]and 2nd[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Lt. Charles V. Brantley, each shot down a German Me-262 jet on March 24, [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]1945, during the longest Fifteenth Air Force mission, which went all the way to Berlin.12[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]However, American pilots shot down no less than sixty Me-262 aircraft before 24 March [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]1945. Most of these American pilots served in the Eighth Air Force.13[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]The Tuskegee Airmen were also not the first Fifteenth Air Force pilots to shoot [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]down German jets. Two such pilots, 1st[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Lt. Eugene P. McGlauflin and 2d Lt. Roy L. [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Scales, both of the Fifteenth Air Force’s 31st[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Fighter Group and 308th[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Fighter Squadron, [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]shared a victory over an Me-262 German jet on 22 December 1944, and Capt. William J. [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Dillard, also of the Fifteenth Air Force’s 31st[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Fighter Group and 308th[/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]Fighter Squadron, [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]shot down an Me-262 German jet on 22 March 1945.[/background] I forgot,once that .50 cal bullet is fired ,you have to factor in the speed of the Mustang into the equation.. The worst position to be in when dog fighting, is to be in front of the guy that's trying to kill you .! If you are the guy running for your life with a flying six shooter from out of the west behind you , you are off to a bad day..! Could you imagine the attitude and feelings of a Mustang pilot before he received his orders of the day , who just got a letter from his girl friend telling him that she is not going to wait for him and she is gonna marry another guy...? The rush of anger,hurt and frustration has to be taken out on somebody .. Now here comes this M-262 mother ,show boating and smiling in his new toy .. Tell it like it is ..! Germany's Hans Von Ohain introduced the jet engine to the world but England's ,Mr.Frank Whittle delivered the jet engine to America ..
