ME 262 vs. P-51 One plane verses another plane... What's the problem...? "The persons who I have this disagreement with is informing me that only 4 ME 262 were shot down by P-51's. He is the also the one that pointed me to this forum". Above i posted a piece that said, [background=rgb(255,255,245)]"However, American pilots shot down no less than sixty Me-262 aircraft before 24 March 1945. [/background] [background=rgb(255,255,245)]So again what's the problem...?[/background]
I don't see any correlation between the topic under discussion i.e. Mw262 vs P-51 and the contents of those posts. I wasn't indeed I'm not sure if I'm missing something or you are just throwing in nonsequetors. Thus my question.
I think the problem might be that the OP was asked and answered 10 years ago. Not to mention that the OP posted once and has not been seen since, the thread he linked to is 404'd, and the domain has long since ceased operation, but was reregistered under another person in 2007. 10 years...Is that a forum record for thread necromancy?
It seems the OP is in a disagreement with someone else about which plane shot down what number of the other... Can you see that part below..? "The persons who I have this disagreement with is informing me that only 4 ME 262 were shot down by P-51's. He is the also the one that pointed me to this forum". Here how i answered the question below... "However, American pilots shot down no less than sixty Me-262 aircraft before 24 March 1945." This was a piece from another article ..
I would have posted this: http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100315-020.pdf But, to each his own.
"I would have posted this: http://www.afhra.af....-100315-020.pdf" But, to each his own. Good stuff.... S7
Now, I'm no expert. But It seems to me that this thread needs to make clear, in the hands of a skilled pilot, the Me-262 was a fearsome adversary for all allied aircraft, not merely overladen heavy bombers. Its not a simple matter to turn into a rapidly approaching aircraft, just because your turn rate is higher at lower speed. The "advantage" of turning into a speeding attacker, is the window of opportunity to score a hit is smaller: but this applies to both aircraft. IOW, it is a defensive measure. A skilled pilot will use his machine's advantages to the maximum; therefore, a Me262 engaging in a turning dogfight with a P-51 wouldn't/shouldn't happen. The greater speed of the Me-262 grants its pilot the ability to choose to fight or not. Except when taking off or landing.
The worst position to be in when dog fighting is in front of the guy that's trying to kill you . If you are the guy running for your life and running on "E" with a flying six shooter from out of the west behind you,you are off to a bad day..!
Exactly, the 262 should never get into a kurvenkampf with any piston engine fighter. A P47, P51 or Spitfire will always turn tighter than the jet. They also had bomber pilots as the first wave for training on the 262. This was because they felt that since it had 2 engines the best pilots for it would have multi engine experience. As bomber pilots did not have the correct mentality for fighter attacks this was a big mistake. Too many jets were lost because of the way the bomber pilots used the jet, turning away from the fight rather than staying straight and climbing using the greater speed of the jet to get away.
Count me in , i'm no expert either but the limited amount of "fuel" and its consumption from what i read of the ME-262 would not allow it to waste precious time in a dog fight with any allied fighter .. The ME 262 Jet was good for 60-90 minutes of flight time ,so my best guess is that the Jet was best used for attacking the bombers and hauling butt back to its base sometimes with a P-51 on ME 262's rear end .
Well loosing an engine or worse two could also leave it in such a position. Such events weren't rare either. Indeed a fair number of very skilled LW pilots died flying Me-262s due mechanical failures. The plane wasn't really ready for operational use.
No it wasn't, but probably could've been ready, had chromium and other rare metals etc been more readily available In sufficient quantities for proper testing of the engine plant, and later for production. Of course, it is difficult to assume, as in 1941, the urgency wasn't immediately apparent as it became in 1944, which forced the hand of the LW to accept the limitations imposed by the lack of these materials (besides other issues).
However they weren't available and the main reasons they weren't was not lack of planning it was the Nazi government and the way they ran the country. The Me-262 was an interesting prototype but due to when and where and by whom it was developed it was never going to be much more than that.
But it achieved far more in it's short time of service, than most prototypes ever did or do, and caused a serious scare. Apparently, no other jet in the LW inventory had Aces (5 or more confirmed kills). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_World_War_II_jet_aces
Because it was forced into service while still a prototype doesn't say that it was a great plane. The fact that it may have been a better fighter than the other German jets isn't saying a whole lot either.
What ever the deficiencies of the 262, it was the only hope of the Luftwaffe. They could never match either the numbers or the training of the allies at that point. Even with the engine problems, a 262 with 4 30mm cannons and 24 R4M rockets was the only air weapon the allies had to fear other than flak. Even the most experienced experten in the Luftwaffe were being shot down in their 109s and 190s. I don't think anything could have saved the war for the Germans by 44 but Gallands idea of a massive strike against a large bomber force was the only rational one. Bodenplatte was a waste of pilots and aircraft and it hurt the Luftwaffe more than the allies. If they could have knocked down 30 or 40 percent of a large raid it would have an effect on allied air operations. Remember the jets did not have to fly far and there were plenty of engines and fuel. They were just misallocated to bomber units and bomber pilots. If a real effort was made similar to Bodenplatte to get the fighter force ready and all 262 production and training geared to fighters that operation may have succeeded. Still would have made no difference to the war though, but they could not surrender. Just like the Russians did and the Americans and British probably would have, the Germans were going to fight to the end. The below is from Adolf Galland. "In the last four months [January–April 1944] our day fighters have lost 1,000 pilots...we are numerically inferior and will always remain so...I believe that a great deal can be achieved with a small number of technically and far superior aircraft such as the [Me] 262 and [Me] 163... I would at this moment rather have one Me 262 in action rather than five Bf 109s. I used to say three 109s, but the situation develops and changes.["
At best it was a false hope. There was no way they could hope to support the number of them that they would need to make any difference at all. Even if they could the allies would simply have deployed their jets. Remember the Meteor saw operational squadron service before the Me-262. Really? How many bombers and fighters did Me-262 shoot down during that period? How many did other LW fighters claim during the same period? They were also being shot down or dieing in crashes of Me-262s. There were plenty of engines? Are you sure about that? You do know how frequently they needed to overhaul engines in Me-262s right? (They did last several times longer in bombers by the way) I don't see how. But of course he couldn't get 1 Me-262 for every 5 Bf-109s could he? Even if he could have got them he couldn't have kept them in service.
It is highly doubtful that the 262 could have ever had a major impact on the outcome of the war. While the design and operational characteristics were far advanced from what the allied air forces were deploying, these attributes became challenges that couldn't be overcome in the compressed time frame of the last 9-12 months of the war. Williamson Murray, in his book 'Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1845,' describes some of the problems associated with fielding not only a new airframe in a combat environment but one that changed tactical airpower forever. Hitler demanded the aircraft have a air-to-ground capability, the lack of experienced pilots of any type in the Luftwaffe by mid 1944, the failure of wide area dispersal of aircraft manufacturing facilities. All of these on top of conducting operational test and evaluation in combat combined to make the 262 little more than a footnote in airpower history.
Really? Looking at the following sites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang#Specifications_.28P-51D_Mustang.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Specifications_.28Messerschmitt_Me_262_A-1a.29 http://warthunder.wikia.com/wiki/Gloster_Meteor_F.3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-59_Airacomet#Specifications_.28P-59B.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-80_Shooting_Star#Specifications_.28P-80C.2FF-80C.29 I get the following top speeds in KM/hr P-51 - 703 km/hr Meteor F.3 - 837 km/hr Me-262 - 900 km/hr That puts the Meteor closer to the Me-262 than to the P-51D. Now the P-59 didn't have much of an edge on the P-51D but the P-80A was roughly on par with the Me-262 speed wise. Possibly or possibly not. It depends on what the costs of getting them and keeping them there were and how many they could get and keep in service. For one thing the Me-262 wasn't easy to fly from what I've read, indeed a number of aces were killed trying to learn how to fly them. Not from what I've read. It was not unusual for one of the jets to limp home on one engine and not unheard of for both to die in flight. Furthermore the ones in the fighters lasted about a quarter of the time that the ones in the bombers lasted. There also was something of an engine shortage from what I've read. As easy, perhaps, but they requred more service per flight hour. I suspect thier fuel consumption per flight hour was a bit bigger than the props as well. I'm not at all sure how you got either of those ideas. What I suggest is that there was no way he could trade off 5 Me-109s for 1 Me-262 to any reasonable extent. Furthermore it's not at all clear that he could have kept even a few hundred Me-262s in service at any one time. Possibly. But how many times can you do it and get away with it? Then there's the question of whether the counters you are likely to provoke leave you in an even worse position.
