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Merkel Apparently Fears Devastating Defeat of the Ukrainian Army

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Bundesluftwaffe, Feb 6, 2015.

  1. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    The missile was Russian. Most weapons in that part of the world are. There is no surprise there. The rest has never been proven.

    US AWAC system can clear the way tho...
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Well if it was shot from the rebel controlled area and I personally saw the video as they claimed great victory until they realised the plane was toi big for military Action they cursed and removed the video footage from their site. Why? If it was great victory why would they remove it from their promoted site? Fortunately their faces in the video give evidence to who will go to Hague liike the Serbs who took part in Srebrenica massacre . It might take time but you will be in court so far everyone has been caught. Having your face in the missile video won"t help you.
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The rest has never been proven, because the Soviets...Sorry, Russians, have been keeping it out of court.

    Thankfully, such stonewalling maneuvers are now out of their hands...Of course, the persons of interest will likely find "sanctuary" in the Soviet Union after their indictments are announced. The can say hello to what's his name...Snowden.
     
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  4. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Which Serbs are you referring to?
     
  5. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    “Soviets” really? You went there again? Good lord.

    The US AWAC system can Sort this all out. With every accusation there should be evidence provided. There is nothing better than the US AWAC. Show it.
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Or not. The evidence was quite clear even from the beginning and Russia coming up with a series of quickly shot down excuses didn't help their position. Although almost no one stated Russia was completely at fault. Most indicated it was some combination of the Russian sponsored "rebels" and Russia. Which it has been shown is clearly the case.
    The Russians suggested a Ukrainian fighter shot down the airliner with a missile. Within 24 hours that theory was clearly refuted. You made a post days after that suggesting it was "gaining traction". That counts for promoting in my book.

    It is perhaps worth observing the difference of how the US reacted when in a similar situation. The US admitted they made a mistake and paid restitution. Russia goes with denial,, obstruction, and obscuration.

    To any reasonable person it has been proven. The aircraft wasn't in range of those in Russian controlled areas of the Ukraine. The launch site is well known having been determined by a number of independent means. The launch vehicle is pretty clear being photographed both on the way in and out and lacking a missile on the way out. The evidence is overwhelming. That it hasn't been proven in a UN court is only due to Russia preventing it from going to trial.
    Can it? You seem awfully sure of what's in that data. It might indeed present even more compelling evidence but to any reasonable person it's hardly necessary.
     
  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Many question the “evidence from the beginning” in the West Russia seems all too easy of a scapegoat. As a result conclusions are drawn up prior to any sort of evidence etc. this goes for many such allegations against Russia. The story always seems to be the same. There are many that don’t agree.

    Which US incident are you referring to?


    All of this was started by the Bellingcat Report. The blame was quickly set afterwards. If you are genuinely interested in the other side pls feel free to read:

    http://www.segodnia.ru/sites/default/files/pdf/The Falsification of Open Sources About MH17.pdf



    Thanks to the AWAC system the US knows exactly from where and when a missile is launched anywhere. When ISIS brought down the Russian passenger liner the AWAC caught a flash inside the fuselage. This was presented to the Russians to clear any doubt of cause. The Russians were grateful. Ukraine was/is a war zone with Russia around the corner. I wouldn’t be surprised if the US had at least a half dozen military satellites mapping and scoping the area. Difficult to imagine that a radar/satellite wouldn’t pick up a missile launch. Either this was a missile that slipped past everyone or the US doesn’t want to devulge the info as it may not fit the nerrative? Who knows.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Those that have looked at the actual evidence and aren't seriously biased don't have much trouble coming to the conclusions I suggested. Now if your ideology suggest Russia can't be guilty or you only believe their version of things you might have some trouble in that regard.
    When the USS Vincennes shot down the Iranian passenger plane. See:
    Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia
    Really surprised you even had to ask.
    Given the amount of lies and deception coming out of Russia on this topic why would anyone put any real credence in a document from a ru site? The evidence is clear the Russians made up several alternative stories that were quickly shown to be false. Given the nature of the stories and how they were disproven it was clear that this was deliberate. Russia has NO credibility in regards to this issue.
    What SF have you been getting your information from.
    That AWACs can do some amazing things if it's in the right location and looking the right direction is clear. Was there one that fit those conditions though at the time the Dutch plane was shot down
    You really think the US had that complete a coverage over the entire area all the time? Even if they did the evidence is clear enough and if we did have confirming evidence it's clear that the Russian government would have just made up more stories to counter it.
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Who exactly looked at what evidence? Nothing has ever been made public.

    You do realize that the US not only never admitted liability but never even apologized for the event.

    Ahhhh spoken like a truly open minded and unbiased individual. There are many that would claim that it’s not Russia that is lying. How many front page news articles in the US quickly blamed Putin hours after the tragedy???

    US officers and professors when I was in flight school who came to speak. Dozens of Planes constantly patrol the skies in 24 hour shifts for this exact purpose.

    I’m not sure you truly appreciate what the US AWAC system is capable off.

    Absolutely. The fact that so many questions are still left unanswered reinforces the fact that not everything is clear.

    Years ago the Ukrainians shot down an Israeli passenger jet flying from Russia. They denied any involvement. No one listened to Russia then either. With pressure from Israel, the US released it’s AWAC confirming what most suspected. Ukraine acknowledged the tragedy.
     
  10. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Of course it was. From the "rebels" exclaiming joyfully how they had shot down a Ukrainian plane shortly after it happened. Then there was the rapid disappearance of those claims when it became clear it wasn't a Ukrainian plane but a Dutch airliner. Then there was the claim by Russia that it was due to a Ukrainian fighter which was counter by info on the performance of said fighters. There were the pictures of the SAM vehicle entering the "rebel" controlled territory before the event and leaving minus a missile afterwards. There were peoples testimony about hearing the missile fired. There was the failure of the Russians and their clients to promptly allow international observers in to study the debris field. There was data concerning the relationship of the launch site and the plane. Then there was Russia claiming it wasn't one of their missiles then the claim that it was but it was an old model that they didn't have in their inventory any more all refuted by experts and photographic evidence. Then there were various other Russian attempts at smoke and mirrors that failed.
    The US admitted they shot down the plane and that it was a mistake. What's more they expressed regret at the loss of life and paid out a significant chunk change to the families involved. The fact that there was no official apology to Iran or admission of liability has a lot to do with Iranian actions up to that point. Note that there was never any question (at least after the first few hours) about the fact that who took the shot or what the plane was doing at the time. No claims that it was an Iranian plane that did it or Iranian missiles or faulty maintenance.
    Once their is enough data to form a reasonable conclusion continueing to claim there isn't is not the sign of an open mind. When one has gotten caught lying repeatedly about the same thing one really shouldn't expect belief in that context. As for blaming Putin hours afterwards well journalist sometimes jump to conclusions but the rebel claims were fairly damming and even if they weren't it was clearly Putin's actions that provoked the fighting in the first place..
    Not dozens of AWAC's planes. There are only 31 in the USAAF inventory and given that some were deployed to the Pacific and some to Iraq and Afghanistan and some in the US .... Well that simply doesn't leave room for dozens.
    Like most equipment it doesn't have much capability when it's off. Without knowing if there were any in the air in range and what the range was your claims are simply suppositions.
    What material questions are left unanswered?
    So the Ukrainians will admit it when they are guilty too bad the Russians won't. Of course you got the story a bit wrong didn't you? Or is Siberian Airways an Israeli company? Note that this was also during a Russian/Ukrainian live fire exercise. And the Russians originally blamed it on terrorist even after the US noted that it was an S-200 that shot it down. Here's a description from wiki:
    Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia
    Are you seeing a bit of a trend here....
     
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  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Just calling a spade, a spade.


    MH-17 was shot down 30 minutes after leaving AWACS patrolled air space...
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Unfortunately, the many who do not agree all seem to live in Russia...

    How much BS can Sloniksp post...pretty much. How do you screw up something that is so easily checked?

    Here is a hint...There was no AWACS...Let me repeat this so that it sinks in...There was no AWACS.

    A flash was caught...That is the only part of this that is true...However, it was not caught "inside the fuselage." What was detected was very hot flash, that was all, not even the aircraft was detected, just the flash. After all, these were IR sensors that were looking for something hotter than run-of-the-mill jet engines.

    How many satellites does the US have in a geosynchronous orbit over the Ukraine? After all, that is the only way to have continuous coverage, other than that you are relying on what ever satellite is passing over a given area at a specific time. Although I must admit, I do not know why the US would need 6 satellites in a geosynchronous orbit over the Ukraine.
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Still waiting for that formal apology and admission of liability for KAL 007...

    You mean like this fake photo that a Russian state controlled TV station broadcast showing a Ukrainian plane shooting down MH17?
    [​IMG]
    And then, it was quickly shredded as a poor hatchet job of GoogleEarth with Photoshop.

    Puts the fear into the Sovs...

    Yes, yes, I am...and an Infrared photo shoot from space is well beyond it's capabilities...But, of course, AWACS is capable of achieving high earth orbit over Egypt...Yeah, Sloniksp, whatever.

    The US was right then...Despite Russian denial...You not making your case any stronger, you are only making your case weaker.

    Quit while you are not too far behind.
     
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  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That might have adverse economic impacts. I seriously beginning to think we have a poster from the Russian version of the 50cent army.
     
  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Lavrov makes the audience laugh about the Crimea invasion

     
  16. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    In regards to that:
    Russia: Choosing A Side In Syria
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Why it was a Russian missile that hit MH17? As I Watched the Dokument there were several commercial planes around. There is only a reason to shoot it down. It was no accident. WHO could consider a BIG commercial plane a military plane?
     
  18. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    My understanding was that they thought it was a Ukrainian transport plane. Indeed from what I recall hearing there were words to that effect on some of the post from the Russian "sponsored" "separatists". The ones they took down when it became clear what the plane really was.
     
  19. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    Well, if I remember during the US + Allies war with Iraq phase 2 So it can happen one of our infallible Aegis-class cruisers "mistook" an Iranian passenger plane for a military plane ( I presume Iraqui one) and shot it down . So it can happen.

    Gaines
     
  20. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    That was 1988...Tail end of the Iran-Iraq war. The Iranian air liner was thought to have been an Iranian F-14. It was also just over a year since the USS Stark got popped by the Iraqis. So not letting any aircraft get close was still fresh in everyone's mind. Still, the captain was overly aggressive and the crew did not have sufficient time to acclimate themselves to how operations were being conducted.
     

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