MG42- Buzz worse than its Bite?

Triple C-
The manuals are CYA for the Army. They would like troops to conserve ammo and try to enforce it with things like Burst modes and frequent trips to the range practicing double- or triple-taps. They are hoping muscle memory will kick-in during combat. The truth is, you will shoot at a threat until you no longer see him, run out of ammo, or know he is down. Things are very different when your life is on the line. In the US, the papers love printing stories about officer involved shootings where a cop will rapidly expend a mag or more at close range. In the case of handgun use, fewer than 10% of the rounds will hit the suspect.

All-
I have several books that have first person accounts from WW2 vets. They all talk about how they taught new recruits to forget what they just learned during Basic about fire discipline or they just disregarded it. They felt it better at times to let the enemy know they were being watched. As mentioned earlier, an MG burst or shot from a sniper can bog down the advance of larger force. These are just additional tools. It may not always work but experience helps decide when or if to use it.

Also, it wasn't just troops on the ground that ignored the regs. Gunners on bombers have stated they'd fire a burst at a fighter just to let the pilot know the gunner was awake.

As Jaeger mentioned, there are a lot of variables and unknowns for non-mil types to attempt to claim an RKI status. It's kind of silly to think you know what you are talking about if you lack knowledge about the MG fundamentals of a beaten zone or cone of fire. Then there's the 'bullets whizzing by defines an accurate burst' bit. What if the burst is from a friendly MG postioned behind you? Do they still whizz or do they sing the national anthem? If you truly want to know about a weapon start by just reading the military manual for it. It helps if you lack military training/experience or don't at least have real trigger time on the weapon in question.

 

Good post sf_cwo2.

I find it hard to judge right or wrong in many matters.

As an example you have the statement "tracer work both ways", as a slogan to stop using these rounds as they will reveal your position. True, but there is a flip side to the coin.

During a raid on a Taliban camp in 2007 we used massive ammounts of tracer ammo and put down a ferocious fire. This had a devastating pshycological effect on the Taliban, and successfully pinned them to their position. The assault from ANA (Afghan National Army) was a piece of cake and we took no casualties. ( I was not part of this action, but my close friend and 2ic was part of it)

The only wrong I conclude is to stick to the manual rather than thinking for oneself how to utilise the resources at hand to your own advantage.

A lot of such brainy stuff can be found in many of the small wars in the 50/60/70ies
(Aden is a good example)


I received a question earlier in this thread about ammo consumption for our MG-3's and how we handle it.

Nowadays we are either motorised or mechanized so it really isn't a problem.
In my earlier days as part of the Jaegers it wasn't too big a problem either. Our task wasn't to assault strongholds, but to light them up for airstrikes or direct arty. Much like other nations recon troops.

If and when we did have contact with the enemy, the tactics was to break contact and manouvre. In effect engagements would be ferocious and short.

I hope that answer the question.

 

I enlisted as a medic and so my gear was different from others on the team. However, I would be required to carry a casualty. With that in mind, I always carried extra ammo and was known to carry an extra M60 (from HQ) along with my M16/M203 (I have lots of pics to prove it!) to help condition myself. So I am not averse to carrying lots of ammo-- can you have "lots of ammo"? Whenever we made contact my thoughts included 'will the ammo last' and 'can we get more ASAFP'? As you mentioned, psychology is a huge factor in this business.

 

"Lots of ammo" now there is an interesting concept.

I think we averaged one round per yard per man regardless of wether you are advancing or breaking contact....

Sorry for hijacking the thread lads.

 

I know I am a little late to this thread, but there is something to be said for a lot of lead down range. I know a Vietnam vet personnaly who played with the M-60's he carried to extract a higher rpm during the war. He was a door gunner and plane capt on UH-1s and he said he was taught by the out going PC how to modify the M-60 for higher rpm. He knew very few who left well enough alone. He also was in a possition to carry and supply ammo to the troops on the ground. They wanted to know how he got the rpm up on his M-60 and he would share the info.
In recently watching some old WWII footage of Germans firing their LMG I saw very few just laying down a lot of ammo. 90% or more of the footage showed deliberate burst fire of less than 3-5 seconds. I assume situation would dictate type of fire conditions, but after reading other veterans post on here, it seems deliberate fire was the rule and not the exception.

 

You're never too late to join in. The Nazis loved keeping records. As a result, the bean counters would know immediately if a unit was expending more ammo than it "should". The CO would then be "reminded" of his unit's obligation to maintain HEER training program standards. You really only encountered this in late war units like VG and volksturm where training was rushed in order to get boots on the ground. Adequately trained soldiers need no convincing to take care of their weapons and to employ them properly.
HTH
Alex

 

Also, the slower rate of fire was for ammo conservation

It was a UMG (universal Machine Gun) meaning it could be a heavy or light with just the mounting and sights being changed

 

German gunners were trained to fire in bursts not full auto all the time

 

ALL machine gunners are trained to fire in bursts rather than just holding down the trigger. The biggest problem with a machine gun isn't ammo expenditure, but heat: overheating the gun means you need to change the barrel, which can take as long or longer than reloading. It also risks damaging the gun or even wrecking the barrel if you fire an overheated weapon too much without letting the barrel cool, as well as reducing accuracy. The MG42 certainly had a quick-change barrel (one of the fastest you'll ever find in its class), but many machine guns don't, or their barrels take too long and/or too much effort to reliably change.

The difference is that machine gunners, thanks to having guns with high capacities and often reinforced barrels, can fire much longer bursts than normal. A burst of 20 or 30 rounds is quite good at putting heads down, which is the main purpose of the machine gun: keep the enemy from attacking. Even the modern M249 is meant to keep the bad guys from leaping out of cover and firing back: you kill the enemy by suppressing them so someone else can flank or use explosives. A few aimed shots can keep someone suppressed for a few seconds, but a long burst that actually chews up bits of the wall you're hiding behind and rattles your bones will make them literally soil themselves in terror.

 

The ZB vz. 26 was definately the most influencial LMG of WWII, it influenced the BREN, the FN 24/29 and the Type 96, 97 and 99 LMGs.

Fun fact: The casualties suffered at the Gold, Sword, Juno and Utah beaches were a little over half the casualties suffered on Omaha.

On topic, sorry if this has already been said, but the MG42 acheived it's superior firing rate by using roller-locking with gas assist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSHJBdKTLDQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller-locked

 

are you assuming the germans' greater reliance on the machine gun, unlike the americans who used mortars more often?

 

Fun fact - is "fun" in that it is misleading.

V Corps casualties 6-7 June are C 2,300 and the estimate for D Day Omaha Beach was 2,000 - of which one third were dead.

The total allied casualties on D Day were C 8,500-10,000. It is not easy to be definitive. http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/ddaycasualtyest.htm

Airborne Operations - 2.4k i
Omaha Beach - 2 k
Remaining beaches 4k

So the losses on Omaha were twice as great as any other single beach, but, in total twice as many allied seaborne assault casualties were suffered on other beaches than Omaha.

On topic: Not sure of there were more MG42 at Omaha than any other beach. The Germans had relativel;y few men, but a lot of firepower, much of which was from captured or obsolete weapons. Some of the machine guns were MG15(?) and Czech. Hien Serveloh was a supernumary for an OP party and not part of an MG team.

 

The MG 42 wasn't gas operated. I'm not sure what gas assist is.