moscow

If the germans had taken moscow in 41, do you think the russian would have made peace with the germans or continued fighting.

I think the russian would have continued the fight.I believe they would've gone all the way to the urals

 

I too see that Russia would continue the fight. They still had too many things left up their sleeves, like the Siberian Divisions....

 

I also think they would have fought but in a devious way. They would have signed some kind of treaty, only to break it and return Hitler the favor. After all, they did move alot of the factories to the East.

 

PzJgr I always wondered how many divisions the germans would have needed if they had the proposed border with the soviet union after the invasion.I also thought that any border with the soviet union would be a dangrous one to defend with constent threat of attack.

 

I would agree. I think that after a treaty would have been signed, the Soviets would have built up their forces and lead the Germans into a false sense of security by letting the Americans open up the second front. At that time, the Soviets would have attacked. It opens up a whole new topic as to what action the Russians would have taken.

 

I think the germans would have built some heavy border defenses like the seigfreid line, but it would've taken alot of time, resources, and manpower.

 

Dear Panzergrenadier: I agree, I think the Germans would have built a copy but improved copy, of the Siegfried Line in the East.

The trouble is, that the Germans would have to maintain such a heave force all along the border, to make sure they could withstand a sneak Russian attack, that if this had to last for years, that it would eventually send Germany to wither on the vine and ruin their economy, because of the funding needed, and the manpower and materials needed.

Certainly, they would have used prisoners and other forced labor to do alot of the work, but they would always be short of materials to do the job.

Also, I figure that the Germans would have to maintain at least 100 fully equipped Divisions just at or within 5 miles of the entire frontline sector which would probably go from Leningrad, to Moscow, to the Caucuses. I dont know the distance, but is a few thousand miles.

Then, the Germans wopuld have to have a substantial number of reserves handy--just in case. Then they would also have to emply most of the Luftwaffe all along their new border, to "keep an eye on things" and make sure peace is kept.

Some pressure could be lifted off Germanys back by using their forign volunteers, and the Hiwis. Everyone knows that alot of their forign volunteers, were not exactly great and trustworthy soldiers. Then on the other hand, many forign volunteers did serve very well and were excellent trusted troopers.

Germanys problems would always be that they had the Gestapo, the Einsatzkommando, and rear area trash like that, that wouls ensure that they did not have total peace--unless they changed their ways, and made friends with the public at large that was under their control.

 

Dear C.Evans if the germans didn't alienate the russians in their tertory they would get large of amounts of russians troops to help cover alot of areas and add a good portition of manpower with defending the border.

I'm sure if that happened that they would have over a million russians in arms to use plus with stalin out of the picture for some time germany would have nothing else to do but finish off england with most of Europe under their control it wouldn't be very hard to do.

After England is gone Germany's allies would be more loyal and have no other side to switch to, giving the germans much more manpower. They would be able to keep their allies troops on the border defense well having a large reserve of german troops in the rear.

I believe that if germany had control of Europe for some time that the Axis army would be made up of equal if not more amounts of non german troop, then german troops, but thats just my crazy idea.

 

Heres my loooong repose. Its not a crazy idea, I agree with you vun hundred percent..

Certainly the Germnas could have had more than 1 mil Russian soldiers to use also, and also the Germans "allies", would be more loyal.

The Hiwis when used for combat, were some tough soldiers. What is unfortunate for the Germans was the fact that some Croation, Hungarian and Italian units on the Eastern Front, were well, less than desirable as trusted units. The blame can be put at the feet of those units Commanding officers

Had they gave more attention to their men, instead of their tea parties, their men would have not suffored from low morale-like what happened during the Russian offensives of Little Saturn and Big Saturn.

I do agree with you 100% though, my friend
great post.

 

Thanks C.Evans, I thought that I would get some critizim for my post. I'm glad u liked it.

Could you give me some info on little saturn and big saturn.

 

No problem, thats what these forums are for. I like tha fact that there is another intelligent person posting here, as we all are also saw your what if and will now go to it. (rubbing my hands together)

 

Moscow represented the most important communications hub in the Soviet Union. If it had been taken in 1941 it is almost certain that Leningrad would also have fallen and that Stalingrad would not have been so easy to reinforce. Given this, Allied assistance to Russia would have been much more problematic and, with the fall of the Caucasus oil fields, the German war effort much more effective. Though the Russian would certainly have continued the fight, they would have been in a worse position than they actually did. It is also possible that, with Russia on its last legs, the Japanese might have opted for a northern strategy rather than attack the USA. I think Hitler's failure to take Moscow in '41 was his worst mistake and quite possible cost him the war.

Chris Ray

 

Leningrad would have definately fallen if Moscow had been taken. It would be impossible to maintain supply lines to the north when the nation is basically cut in two.

If Moscow fell the Russians would retreat to Siberia and the Urals. Everything in Leningrad and the Karelian would be stripped of anything and moved to Siberia.

Similarily, they'd probably stick it out in Stalingrad for a bit longer before retreating. Using the city then as a buffer to hold the Germans at bay long enough to reinforce the Urals and move whatever they can to Siberia.

By propping up the Urals with an intense array of fortifications (bunkers, barbed wire, mines, artillery, etc.) they could effectively keep the Germans at bay and fighting for years to come. If they lost the Urals, however, the Germans could easily run over the rest of Siberia easily.

I kinda doubt either side would go for a peace treaty considering a.) their capitol had been taken and b.) they've got a vendetta now over the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Those two things would severly effect the decision of a peace proposal.

 

The germans didn't have the urals in their plans for their new empire in russia. It would be a barrier for them and I think the russian army would have had enough of Stalin and would have tryed to get rid of him, but even if that failed Stalin would have come to peace with hitler before they got to the urals.

 

Abd al Aziz: Great posting and welcome aboard friend. I agree that their supply lines would be more than stresched to their breaking points, Stalingrad proved that-even though it was mostly a Luftwaffe resupply effort-thanks to Goring and being very boastful on HIS Luftwaffe achievements-even though they failed miserably in most of their attempts at resupply.