My WW2 Handgun Collection

I still haven't taken the S&W Victory to the range yet. When I get the Nambu and Hi Power I'll take the three of them out together. I managed to procure 200 rounds of .38 S&W (spurprisingly hard to find up here) and always have a few hundred rounds of 9mm in the safe so I'm all set.

A 1+ month transfer is unusually long. Typically it takes about 2 weeks. Must've had a lot of paperwork on the go at the RCMP HQ...

EDIT: It looks like my photos are offline, again. Can anyone see them or is this just a problem on my end?

 

Nope, gone. Are you using photobucket? It's usually very reliable.

 

While we're waiting for George's report, I'll wax eloquent about the early origins of the Hi-Power - some things I suspect George won't cover. I hope. I don't want to steal his thunder... I hope George doesn't mind (?), but most Yanks don't know much about this gun. Most of our British and commonwealth members will already know a lot, but it was only really popular in the states for a period in the 60's and 70's as a target pistol in the world of combat competition. When the IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) became the lead in the sport, they introduced a "power factor" that put a premium on .45 and pushed 9mm out of the sport. Until that time, the Hi Power was at the top of the heap in these competitions and after that it became the 1911. It wasn't that the Hi Power was more accurate (but it IS just as accurate as the 1911!), it was because they wanted to make the speed of the reloads a bigger part of the competition. A Hi Power had 13 rounds (+1 in the chamber for 14) while the 1911A1 was 7+1. So you had to reload the 1911 twice as often, slowing you down. That's was the reasoning for the change anyway... Really, I think the 1911 guys just wanted to push this "foreign" pistol out.

When those rules changed, the Hi Power became less popular here. Police and self defense people gravitated to the newer DA/SA pistols that were coming out at that time. Or, they stayed with the 1911, which is a fine pistol in itself.

The Hi Power (Grande Puissance,or GP 35 or P35 or BP or just Browning), was John Browning's last design. He shares design credits with a very talented Belgian designer named Dieudonné Saive. (I have no idea how to pronounce his name - maybe one of our French speakers will help, because I'd like to know). Saive usually gets credit for the wrong things in the design though. They usually say he designed the double column mag that just about every pistol uses today, but somewhere on my bus drive I have Browning's original submission drawing to FN and the double column mag is present. What Saive did do, because Browning died before the design was finished, was change the original striker fired design (like today's Glock) to a hammer fired design - because military ordnance people wanted a hammer. Saive's solution was rather simple and elegant - I'll leave that to George to describe when he's ready.

Saive also made the pistol somewhat more compact. He shortened the grip and slide. He removed metal at the front of the slide to further lighten the gun, and give a profile that makes it easier to holster - compare to the blunt and blocky slide on a 1911.

The final product was (in the eyes of most of the world, outside the US) the finest military pistol of the era. I got hooked ten or fifteen years ago when I bought a cheap Argentine clone. With the newer self-defense 9mm ammo out today, and the new 15+1 mags, it's my everyday gun. There are kitchen table "tweaks" that a private owner can do to improve the heavy military trigger, but other than that they are good to go right out of the box.

I'll leave the post-1935 stuff to George. I'm especially interested in hearing about his Nazi occupation Hi Power. This is one of the most sought after variants out there. Most of these went to the Waffen SS because they got the best small arms available. I'm very jealous!




Edited to add: I didn't mean to imply that original Argentine clone is my everyday gun - I meant to say that it got me hooked on Hi Powers because even that cheap used import shot like a champ! I've gone through a bunch of Hi Powers since, and my everyday carry gun is an old Belgian that I picked up from a group of Israeli army surplus pistols that came in a few years back. I Parkerized it (like the Inglis that I'm sure George will mention), replaced all the springs, tweaked the trigger and had some modern combat sights put on it. I'd bet my life on this pistol.

 

gorgeous, thanks for sharing!

 

Quick update: The Nambu should be here tomorrow. I'm still waiting on the Hi-Power to be shipped (the seller has still not received RCMP notification yet), so I'm guessing it'll be arriving late next week. Sorry Keith! You'll have to wait a bit longer.

However, yesterday I did pick up a Berthier Mle 1892/1916 Carbine. Interesting little rifle. That should be arriving early next week.

 

Damned bureaucrats!

 

The Nambu is here. Its much bigger and heftier than I expected. I'll post some photos and a writeup tomorrow. Its a very interesting design.

 

I finally got around to photographing the Nambu and doing a brief writeup. I was sidetracked earlier today -- we had the first nice weather (20 degrees C) since the Fall so I took the MB out for a several hour drive. Here it is after returning to the "motor pool". This is the dirtiest I've ever had it -- lots of dust from the crap left on the roads over the winter!

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Onto something a bit more exotic: the Nambu Type 14

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Background:

Lt General Kijiro Nambu was Japan's most prolific arms designer and is sometimes called the "Japanese John Moses Browning". As we all know Japan rapidly industrialized in the mid to late 1800s, and rapidly expanded its military power. In the early 1890s Japan introduced its first indigenous handgun -- the Type 26 revolver -- and by the turn of the century Japan, like the US and European nations, became interested in a semiautomatic handgun. By the early 1900s Nambu had designed his first pistol known as the "Type A". It used a locked-breech recoil operated system. The recoil pushes the slide back slightly, which disengages the lock. The slide then freely recoils back, ejecting the cartridge. The slide is then pushed back forward by recoil springs, loading a second cartridge in the process. Outwardly the Nambus are somewhat similar in appearance to the Luger, but the two have few things in common and were designed separately. The Type A was adopted in 1902 and some 2400 were built. Two very similar-looking variants followed; the "Type A Modified" and "Type B" small-frame version. All were essentially identical from a mechanical perspective and I won't go into the details here.

The most common variant -- the Type 14 -- was adopted in 1927 as standard issues for Japanese NCOs. The designation comes from the year of Emperor's reign: in this case, the 14th year of Taisho's rule. Officers also were allowed to purchase the Type 14 (Japanese officers had to purchase their sidearms, and as a result a large number of commercial European pistols saw service in the Pacific). The Type 14 was a simplified version of the Type A Modified -- omitting the grip safety found on these earlier models -- and used the same 8x22mm ammunition. The Type 14 had a 8-round magazine that, again, appears similar to that of the Luger. Although being a bottleneck cartridge, the 8x22mm round is considered "underpowered" and has similar power to .380ACP. The Type 14 remained in production until August 1945 and saw service in every Pacific battle. An estimated 400,000+ were produced.

The Type 14 mechanically stayed the same throughout the war with one exception. The original trigger guard was rounded. In response to widespread criticism about the lack of finger space when wearing gloves this "improved" trigger guard was implemented (look at the photos and you'll see an unsightly "bulge" at the front). As you may expect, the quality of the fit and finish degraded over the course of the war. In 1944 the serrations on the cocking knob were removed, and by the same time smooth-sided grips were used to simplify production.

Nambu production ceased with the surrender of Japan and led to no other military designs. However, Bill Ruger used the rear cocking knob and general profile in the Ruger Standard pistols -- the most popular .22LR pistols ever made. These remain in production to this day.

My Pistol:

Unlike rifles, Japanese handguns had the date and month of manufacture stamped on the frame. Mine is dated November 1943. It has serial number 937, which makes it the 937th gun of the so-called "2nd Series" produced at Nagoya Arsenal. Japanese production was broken up into blocks of 99999 pieces, with each block called a series. Once a series was filled, the serial number were reused, and prefixed by the new "series" marker. On my pistol the numbers are all-matching. This pistol has the elongated trigger guard. This is one of the last pistols made with the large serrations on the cocking knob -- by late December to January 1944, production was using the simplified style. The quality is still surprisingly high -- the bluing is fairly uniform and not done haphazardly, but you can definitely see machining marks here and there. In many ways this is a "transitional" pistol that represents the "last" of early-war quality. Interestingly besides some aesthetic wear on the finish this pistol appears unused. The barrel is pristine with no wear what-so-ever, and there are no signs of abuse.

Its worth noting how rare these pistols are in Canada. Unlike, for example, the 98k or Lee Enfield, Nambus were not sold in large numbers on the surplus market after the war. Like Japanese rifles almost all of those that made it to North America were vet bring-backs. In the US these are fairly common and even cheap (around 800-900 for a real nice one). Since Canada had little involvement in the Pacific War between the Fall of Hong Kong and some naval operations in 1945, very few of these pistols made it to Canada. Most were imported from the US over the years. According to the federal firearms registry, there are exactly 193 Nambu Type 14s in Canada.

My Japanese military collection is sparse. Asides from a couple of Arisakas all I have is a brass clip of 7.7mm ammo for a Type 92 machine gun. As such I've added a USMC Ka-Bar. Given that the great majority of Nambus in North America are vet bringbacks, this isn't much of a stretch. I've included a few rounds of new production 8x22mm ammo as well.

Outwardly the lines look similar to a Luger. Note the lanyard ring and cocking knob.

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Another view. The pencil barrel makes the Nambu look deceptively small. In fact, the pistol weights 900 grams. my hand only goes down to the sheet-metal protrusion (the magazine catch) on the grip.

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Profile view.

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The other side, with the magazine removed. Unusually for a pistol without a heal magazine release, the magazine doesn't "pop" out and instead has to be pulled out. Its pretty stiff, and is why there's a big round indentation on the bottom -- you really need something to grip on when you try to remove it.

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A closeup of the safety, trigger and magazine release. The safety is a simple affair -- the lever rotates 180 degrees. The forward position is "fire", the rear position is "safe".

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The rear of the pistol. Note the cocking handle -- anyone with a Ruger .22LR pistol will recognize the similarities. The light pitting seen here is the only significant aesthetic damage to the pistol.

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It only occurred to me after I photographed the other pistols that I had no photos showing them field-stripped. Here's one of the Nambu. I haven't seen a pistol that disassembles like this before. The cocking knob comes unscrewed which allows the firing pin, extension and spring to be removed. By pushing in the magazine release the entire trigger assembly slides down and becomes removed from the frame. Once this is done the slide is removed by pulling it forwarded and the bolt can be pulled out. The bolt has two small recoil springs. Interesting system, and not that difficult to get the hang of.

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How does it shoot?

We'll find out in the next two weeks. I just received this on Friday so I haven't had a chance to take it out yet. I did manage to source some ammunition for it (not an easy task!), so everything is ready to go. Japanese arms in general are often derided by North American collectors as being cheap, crude and/or unreliable. These are the impressions I had when I bought this pistol but I'm pleasantly surprised. The sights are usable, balance is good (most of the weight sits directly over your palm) and the grip is large and angled enough to be comfortable. The trigger is a bit spongy, but has a nice light trigger pull. My one complaint is the magazine -- its a real ordeal to remove and I can't see it being done quickly in any type of combat scenario.

 

Great write-up and great photos!

My understanding is that the collector market for WWII Japanese arms and militaria has really turned around in the last 15 years or so. Prices have risen considerably. I think (just my opinion) that the early "Japanese guns are junk" mantra was born out of propaganda and racism during the war. And of course after the war, Japanese industry turned to exporting inexpensive toys and cheap appliances which just reinforced the stereotype for many years. Certainly, an Arisaka is on par with the American Springfield or British SMLE. Their light machine gun, the Type 96, was in most respects better than the American BAR and at least as good as the Bren.

They did make the Nambu Type 94 pistol (an entirely different pistol in every way than the Type 14) which has the unfortunate flaw that the sear was exposed outside the frame and if you press on it (accidentally or otherwise) it will go off. No less an authority than Ian Hogg said the Type 94 was the worst service pistol ever made. Unfortunately, they're both "Nambu's" and many people don't realize they are different designs.

As for the underpowered cartridge, I think a pistol was more a badge of office to the Japanese military, rather than a fighting sidearm. Still, a 100 grain slug at 950 fps can be quite lethal even if it's not as powerful as other pistol cartridges of the era.

 

Japanese militaria in general has seen an uptick in recent years. People now recognize Japanese arms are fine weapons. I don't know what originally caused the everyone to think that Japanese guns are subpar -- I've heard explanations ranging from what you said to poor vets trying to shoot Japanese training rifles with full-powered ammo and having them blow up in their faces! In fact, after the war the Arisaka was proven to have the strongest action of any WW2 rifle.

I regularly follow the prices on gunbroker. Nice Arisakas have creeped up into the 5-600+ range recently, and Nambus are around 800+ now. 10 years ago prices were about half of what they are now. Prices are picking up, but the trend appears to have slowed a bit. Some collectors were expecting "The Pacific" to do the same thing for Japanese arms that "Band of Brothers" did for American arms but this didn't fully materialize. Don't even get me started on the Canadian market -- prices for Arisakas have gone nuts! I picked up a nice Type 99 3 years ago for 300 bucks. Now the average price appears to be around 900 (if you can even find one). Supply and demand I guess.

The Type 94 is an interesting thing. Nambu actually designed it privately after he retired from the military. They're prohibited up here so I have no hope of ever owning one, but I have handled a 1944 model before. Its one ugly, awkward gun. The sights are just horrendous. All the Type 94 has in common with the Type 14 is the designer and the ammunition.

I don't think the Japanese put high emphasis on combat handguns, as evidenced by the fact that Japanese officers had to buy their own. This might explain the choice of cartridge. You're entirely correct to note that although it may be considered "underpowered", its still deadly. Its just like how some refer to the 6.5mm Japanese rifle round as "underpowered". Yes, underpowered in comparison to .30-06 or 8mm Mauser, but by no means a "weak" round.

 

Well, the 6.5x55 (Swede) is a ballistic twin of the Japanese 6.5x50 - different size/shape cartridge, but very similar velocities with the same bullet weights. With 140 grain slugs you get about 2500 to 2600 fps. The 6.5 Swede is still the most popular moose hunting round in Sweden, so it's hardly "weak" just smaller in diameter. I've killed many, many deer with a .243 (6mm) and several caribou with a 7mm Mauser. They were just as dead as if I'd shot them with a thirty.

I suppose with military FMJ's bigger really is better, but I don't think the difference is as great as so many "authorities" posit in obscure firearms journals..

 

I concur. The thing that I find amusing now are all the people who consider themselves "firearms experts" because they play Call of Duty. I've been seriously collecting guns for some time now and I wouldn't even consider myself to be an "expert".

 

With 20th century military firearms/cartridges, the only guy I really trust is Ian Hogg. His knowledge is so encyclopedic and well researched AND personal that he leaves everyone else in the shade. He was, at the end of his long and distinguished military career, the "master gunner" at the Royal Military College of Science. He came up through the ranks from WWII on, so he learned from the ground up. He knew the technical side better than anyone and he actually shot all those guns that he writes about. This was no armchair expert.

He died a few years ago, but most of his books are still in print.

 

The Hi Power has been shipped. I'll be posting it when I receive it -- probably next Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

Hello!

Thank's for interesting information

About M1895 Nagant Revolver 1943

Heavy trigger because it's made quickly in 40-th.
Belgian prototype for Russia is much better(adjusted)

My Best Regards.
Mike

 

After a lengthy delay, here's the Hi-Power.

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Background:

Post WW1 the French Army was seeking a new service pistol. In response John Browning, one of the most prolific gun designers in history, began work on what was to become known as the Hi Power. Browning had ceased his affiliation with Colt and had sold the rights to the M1911 design previously so was forced into the usual situation of designing a pistol without building on his previous work. Under contract to Fabrique Nationale (FN) in Belgium, Browning set to work and took careful steps not to infringe on the M1911 design. In 1923 Browning filed patents for two pistols; one with a blowback operating system and the other with a locked breech. I don't know enough about these designs to comment on them off the top of my head. Three years later Browning died and the "Hi Power" design was still not yet finished. One year after that, in 1928, the M1911 patents expired. Enter Dieudonne Saive -- an engineer at FN who later played an integral role in design of the superb FN-49 and its descendent the ubiquitous FN FAL. He combined several of the M1911 features with Browning's locked-breech design (don't ask me for details because I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about these pistols). By 1931 the design was more or less finalized, and was ready for production by 1935. The design that emerged can be viewed as an "improved" M1911. Notably, the "Hi Power" featured a 13 round double-stack magazine (cartridges are contained in the magazine in a "zig-zag" pattern as opposed to the single-stack "one on on top of the other" manner used with the M1911) and had a simpler takedown method. Like the M1911 the pistol was single-action but instead of .45ACP was chambered in 9mm Luger. To my knowledge the double-stack magazine was the first to be used in a handgun. Indeed, during WW2 and well into the Cold War single-stack magazines were the norm.

Belgium adopted the pistol first, and - despite the design advantages - France chose not to and instead adopted the rather "average" domestically-produced Modele 1935. Military production in Belgium continued until 1940. In broad terms there were two models; one with fixed sights, and one with an adjustable tangent rear sight and shoulder stock. A shipment of the latter was delivered to Finland during the Winter War. When the Germans captured the FN factory during the invasion of Belgium the Hi Power was deemed a "good" pistol and production continued to equip the Wehrmacht. Limited production of the tangent sight model continued, but this was quickly dropped in favour of the simpler and more practical fixed-sight type. German production continued until late 1944, when the Brussels area was liberated by the advancing Allies. Approximately 330,000 pistols were produced and all bear german acceptance markings (Waffenampts). Unlike the Radom Vis-35 I showed previously, no design changes occured over the production period with the exception of degrading fit and finish. The Hi Power proved popular with the Waffen SS -- in the famous "Poteau" Ardennes sequence one of the men can be seen with a Hi Power.

Early in the war the Canadian Army was also in search of a sidearm -- having previously relied upon the M1911 and standard British service revolvers. The plans for the Hi Power were sent to Canada before the invasion, and production began at the John Inglis company in Toronto in late 1944. Quick aside here -- the Inglis company made kitchen appliances, and is still in operation to this day. The "Inglis" Hi Power model (with a few minor changes compared to the original FN design) saw service with the Canadian Army, SAS, British Airborne and SOE. Nationalist China also ordered a several thousand. Hence, the Hi Power gained the unusual distinction of being the only standard service pistol of both an Allied and Axis country.

After the war the production continued at the FN plant. The pistol proved popular both commercially and militarily and was adopted by nearly 90 countries including Britain, Canada (the Inglis model is still our official service pistol), Finland, and Holland. It is still in widespread use to this day. As Keith alluded to, the pistol was sidelined by the M1911 but still stands as one of the definitive handgun designs of the 20th century. Commercial models are still in production to this day (Browning is currently producing "3rd Generation" Hi Powers), and can be purchased at most gun shops. Gaddafi had a Hi Power customed-engraved with gold and jewel inlays as I remember seeing rebels waving it around after capturing his Tripoli compound during the Civil War. I think Saddam had one too.

My Pistol:

My Hi Power is a German occupation model made in mid-1942. This was made just as the fit and finish quality began to degrade in response to the worsening strategic situation Germany found itself in. It is all-matching and despite the worn finish the pistol is mechanically mint. The barrel has crisp, strong rifling. No, I don't get it either. All in all, this is a nice, honest "used" example. German production was divided into three "blocks". The first had no letter prefix to the serial number, the second and third were suffixed with an "a" and "b", respectively and split into blocks of 99,999. This pistol fits into the first block.

These pistols are not a common find in Canada. I've seen an average of around 5 sell per year (compared to 80+ P38s and 50+ Lugers). This is by no means an authoritative figure and I don't claim it to be so, but this just provides a rough idea for you. When for sale, these generally sell fast. Like the Nambu, "unscrewed with" German-marked examples are almost certainly "vet bringbacks" as they were never imported commercially.

Onto some photos. I already showed off most of my non-firing German militaria previously so for this one I'm just using ammunition as the backdrop. There's two boxes of WW2 8mm Mauser (one unopenned), a box of 9mm Luger and a 5 round clip of 7.92x33mm ammo used in the MP44 that I picked up in Bastogne some years ago. This pistol actually came with an Inglis holster and spare Inglis magazine but I left them out of the photos.

The Hi Power features a slide lock and, unlike a M1911, a takedown latch to assist in disassembly (which doubles as a crossbolt safety like on the M1911). Rather unusually for a pre-war European pistol the magazine release is on the side by the trigger as opposed to the "heal" release found at the bottom of the magazine like on the P38. The finish is worn and has marks consistent with holster wear -- clear indication that this saw use.


One distinctive feature of the Hi Power is the "scalloped" slide. A double-stack magazine is wide, but the slide is machined down in "steps" to make the pistol easier to carry and has contributed to its popularity. As a result the balance is quite nice, with most of the weight centered over your hand. The M1911 tends to be a bit "front heavy".


The main wear is centered on the front of the slide and frame. This can be attributed to both the holster and heat when firing. This is when the Germans started cutting corners and as a result the finish was not up the pre-war standards. The late-war (1944) pistols were even worse!


The roll mark on the slide. This is identical to pre-war Belgian models, with the exception of the Waffenampts (German acceptance marks) seen to the center-right. Some counterfeits are known to exist, particularly in the US. Less than honest individuals can easily buy stamps on eBay and set up their own "Waffen shop".


The slide cocked back. One thing I noticed is the hammer can bite the web of your hand so that's something to be watched. Maybe I'm just used to the "beavertails" on the M1911A1s.


The Hi Power field-stripped. This is a simpler process than the M1911 and I can do it without rushing in about 15 seconds. Unlike the M1911, the barrel has a "step" as opposed to a "link" system. This is similar to the Radom VIS-35


How does it shoot?

I have no idea. I've been so busy recently I haven't had a chance to take it to the range -- I'm gaining a lengthy backlog, as I've acquired 3 WW2 rifles over the past 2.5 months that haven't been "broken in" yet either. It does feel very nice to hold though, and the balance is excellent. The slide lock is well-positioned (I find the slide lock on an M1911 hard to work because its so far forward of my thumb), as is the magazine release. The trigger is a bit rough due to the magazine disconnect (you can't pull the trigger unless the magazine is inserted) but I can live with this since this pistol is a primarily collector as opposed to a standard "shooter" I'll take out and put a few hundred rounds through like my Sig P226. All in all, this feels like an excellent handgun. The double-stack magazine would have been a big advantage in combat and I can see why this pistol was popular on both sides.

 

Your photos did not show up.

As far as the hammer bite goes, that is a result of modern pistol technique where people are taught to take a much higher grip on the gun. In the old pistol shooting fashion that wasn't an issue. If you remember that at the range, you won't get "bit." Don't try to force down the recoil with a high grip as you would with a 1911. You don't need to, it's a full sized pistol in 9mm. Recoil isn't an issue.

There's a lot of confusion about which parts of the pistol were designed by Browning and which by Saive. This photo below is the first working prototype in 1927 completed a few months after Browning's death, but the final schematics from which this was built were actually drawn by Browning in 1923.

Everything after that is pure Saive. As you can see, it was originally a striker fired design. It also didn't have the damnable magazine disconnect that doubles the trigger pull weight. The first thing most Hi Power buyers do is sit down at the kitchen table and remove the mag disconnect. Saive had to make changes since they were looking for the French Army contract and late in the game the French changed their mind and demanded a hammer fired design and a mag disconnect. Saive designed both in a rather simple and elegant manner. As George points out, Saive also thinned the slide at the front because in 9mm that extra weight simply wasn't needed, that change also shifted the balance back towards the shooters hand, which gives the pistol that "fits like a glove" feeling that most notice when they pick up a Hi-Power. That narrow slide also helps when you're sliding it back into the holster. Saive's changes give the pistol a more elegant look, as well as saving weight and improving the ergonomics.

One thing that Saive gets credit for that is actually a Browning innovation is the double stack magazine. As you can see in the prototype from the 1923-27, it always had a 13 round magazine. (You can get reliable 15 round mags today from Mec-Gar).

 

Very nice GP! I'm a little jealous!

 

Pix visible now! That's a beauty! You'd have to search long and hard to find one in better condition.

 

Thanks guys. I could have shelled out big money for a Nazi-marked Hi Power in better condition than this one in the past but I suffer from a fundamental condition known as "I don't like to overpay". I'm never planning on selling anything in my collection but I almost always insist on getting a good deal. All in all I'm very happy with this Hi Power and am looking forward to taking it to the range.

That's it for my handguns for the time being. I've been buying rifles recently and currently have a hankering for some more Arisakas. I'll update this thread next time I get a handgun. In the meantime I'll put some thought into how to take some good photos of my long guns so I can start "My WW2 (plus Pre- and Post-War) Long Gun Collection". I've tried a few times in the past but always gave up. At least from my experience, long guns are more difficult to take photos of and you really need some good lighting.