Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Boba Nette, Mar 8, 2006.
This is turning into a discussion and not a Myth-Buster...
What is wrong with that?
Nothing really, I just thought myth-busters would be short and concise threads that "busted" myths, utilizing information gathered and verified by forum members.
What we have so far probably covers the major point. Someone would just have to merge it all together.
It's always more lively to have debates and disagreements, as long as we bring some facts (or close to it) to the table. :grin:
so i think we already did that!!! :grin:
Agreed. One of the German BB's survivors said in a documentary that he felt that both claims were true. They did scuttle her, but the British had fatally damaged her, so she would have sunk anyway,
just a little note:
none of the torpedos that hit the bismarck caused damage that caused the sinking, all the torpedos bulkhead remained intact battered but intact
whit al do respect but how can you know that? if a torpedo doesn't explode it sinks to the bottem, gets pressed together by the pressure and then might explode.
do not understand your point? :-?
Actually, WW2 torpedoes had a self-destruct function. If they missed, they exploded at the end of their run.
She would have been very powerful if she was supported by the Luftwaffe and the the U-boats. Say have 20 planes accompanying the Brismark at all times and two U-boats with her, she could have been a very devasting object during a fight. Say the Brismark was attcking a harbour, she could pound the land with her heavy guns, the 2 U-boats could have taken care of the Royal Navy in that harbour and the 20 Luftwaffe planes could stop the RAF from even getting close to the Brismark. The German's could have done a big blow the Royal Navy, the RAF and most of all an attack on English soil; then you could send in landing craft with soldiers and armoured vehicles to begin the envasion of England. The Brismark would have lived out longer if the Geman's had used that tactical plan.
Private Mic von Krate
Re: The Brismark
That is almost totally in the realm of fantasy. First off, where exactly are these Luftwaffe planes going to come from? Only patrol aircraft like the Fw200 Condor really had the range to cover a naval vessel at sea like the Bismark, and they aren't going to keep any part of the RAF away. Even allowing for a fighter umbrella, 20 fighters is nothing the RAF couldn't counter.
Your Tactical plan seems to hinge on the British just sitting back and letting the Bismark do as she wished, do you really think the Royal Navy would be that stupid as to let an enemy warship pound a mainland harbour at will and unopposed? Why would a mere 2 U-boats would have been enough to take out every Royal Navy vessel in the area? Why would the presence of 2 U-boats have been at all decisive?
Lastly. If such a simple plan was feasible, why didn't the Kriegsmarine actually do it? Simple answer, it's not even remotely feasible and would result in the Bismark going under very, very quickly.
Re: The Brismark
Experience in several navies showed definitively that submarines were not capable of operating in close coordination with fleet units. The waters near harbors are heavily patrolled, and two subs would hardly constitute a serious threat. In any case, fleet units were among the most difficult of targets.
If Bismarck had approached a British base, she would have been crushed. Had she survived long enough to get in range of a major base, her gunfire would have been random with no spotting corrections as the area would be a secure anchorage. But she'd probably not be shooting at the base as she'd be occupied with the ships swarming around her.
The Germans got in one air raid on Scapa early in the war and forced the old training ship Iron Duke aground, but generally it's not adviseable to send your atack into the teeth of the strrongest defenses.
your plan is fairly poor I have to agree,
Large naval ships were terrified of being caught in enemy coastal waters. Here they would be vulnrable to light torpedo boats and destroyers, land based anti shipping guns, enemy subs and most importantly air power. Remember they treated the open ocean as a place to hide and hunt.
To have the luftwaffe try to defend a ship in coastal waters would also be a massive drain on their fighter wings.
Remember that this is WW2, there was no virtually coordination between surfice ships and u boats and u boats could not properly opperate in such shallow coastal water. a good perctage of U boat kills were set up and prepared whilst the boat was on the surface and even used the deck gun. A U boat was fairly blind opperating from the scope only and had only limited manouvering and duration underwater. As such the U boats would need to be surfaced to be of any good and keep up with the surface fleet, but would themselves become sitting ducks to the huge numbers of planes searhing the area.
Given the resouces the admiralty used to sink the bismarck what do you think in addition from bomber/fighter command and admiral costal defence forces would have been thrown at her had she been stupid enough to come with 20 miles of the UK coast?
RE: Brismark attack
Well i failed to mention other things. It would have been a small harbour with few ship and a small air base. Even if the Brits had known that the Brismark was in the area, the German's would use a couter attck to keep them away. And the English wouldn't think that they would attack at that small of a place. And it would need to be stealthy with the right weather, perferably fog and maybe a little rain. It would really work under the right circumstances, you just have to draw it out and plan it like I did. And once the German's had troops on English soil, the German's could have sent about 300,000 troops and armour, as well as 2000 Luftwaffe planes and naval vesels alond the coastline; this would of had to taken place in the earlier years of the war to make the plan actually worth trying. And if it didn't work, the war probably would finished a lot faster.
Private Mic von Krate
How would they get the troops across?
i read a lot what if situation but this one lacks logic, the RN would never allow a enemy ship get near them, , now what about the RAF? same situation, and remember that the gemans had a plan to invade england but never managed to use it,why? because the RAF
a little note:
how the germans will transport 300,000 and armor?, they did not have many transports.
you plan is flawed, very :bang:
Re: RE: Brismark attack
A battle plan is not based on imaginery abilities. If you wanted to propose an operation, you would have to designate which forces would be performing what missions, and (horror of horrors) what logistical support would be available. One could very easily suggest that the British send an invasion force against the west end of the Kiel Canal, march overland to Berlin, and when the Germans counterattacked, smash them into bits. But fantasies have nothing to do with plausible battle plans. The Germans historically gave thought to invading Britain and determined it was hopelessly unrealistic. And that might be an optimisitic view.
Private Mic von Krate,
With all due respect, your plan is deeply, deeply flawed.
Your requirement for Luftwaffe support ties down the invasion to a very narrow area, the south east coast. This allows for the Royal Navy to have prepared a counter blow that would wipe out the KM due to overwhelming numerical superiority, so sorry, but the British would be expecting the Germans to attack, historically this was the case in 1940.
Equally the only time such an invasion could be attempted due to conditions in the channel was mid-late summer, no fog or rain likely.
I would be very interested in hearing more about your plan, particularly the logistical side of how you are going to provide the 300,000 men plus AFVs with ammunition, food, fuel and fodder for the horses.
What about the un-specified counter-attack that will drive off the Royal Navy? How does the numerically hopelessly outclassed KM manage to defeat the RN in your plan?
How are you planning to transport all these men and equipment? Which ports and loading facilities are you planning to use? Why can these not be disabled with equal ease by a Royal Navy Battleship with Submarine escorts as the Bismark and it's escorts manage in your plan?
Why with just a handfull of German Marines on mainland UK would the entire British military sit back and allow this huge armada to sail across the channel and land with absolutely no opposition? Especially given that the quantity of shipping required for such an undertaking would be collosal and would not escape notice?
I'm sorry, but I just cannot see any basis at all in reality for your plan regardless of your comment: "It would really work under the right circumstances, you just have to draw it out and plan it like I did"
How exactly did you draw it out and plan it? There seems to be collosal (I believe insurmountable) weaknesses in your plan.