Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

New Movie Alert! "Midway", coming November 2019!

Discussion in 'WWII Films & TV' started by George Patton, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    483
    The Japanese landings in the Philippines and East Indies employed a total of eleven infantry divisions, not all of which were embarked at any one time. The major forces, for Malaya and Luzon, had to be landed in several increments; fortunately it was a short round trip to their bases in Indochina and Formosa. This also allowed small craft such as minesweepers to carry a proportion of the troops.

    They simply did not have the transport capacity to take an appropriately sized landing force to Hawaii in a single operation. Their nearest bases, the Marshalls, were a week's steaming each way for all but the fastest transports or cargo ships.

    As others have noted, an assault on Hawaii would mean foregoing the attack on their real objectives in the Far East.
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,312
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Location:
    Michigan
    They didn't have a lot of landing craft either did they?
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    11,577
    Likes Received:
    1,945
    Amphib landing at Khota Baru, several hours before the raid Pearl Harbor.
     
    lwd likes this.
  4. EKB

    EKB Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    41

    After the Japanese victory at the Battle of Santa Cruz, no U.S. admiral believed it was that simple.

    When the USS Hornet went to the bottom, Nimitz had just one operative carrier (Enterprise) that was bomb damaged and taking on water. It was dumb luck that Big-E withdrew before the IJN could try a knock out blow with follow-up strikes. Too much focus on Midway heroics also overlooks that Japanese aircrew losses were higher at Santa Cruz, but low on the U.S. side.

    If Nimitz had any immediate reason to be optimistic, it was that Japanese admirals were tentative even in the face of success. Yamamoto's death added to a climate of uncertainty and Koga was conservative with carriers. Even if the IJN had saved two of four carriers at Midway, there is no guarantee that the ships would have been used aggressively.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    8,850
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    Without the decisive victory at Midway, there would have been no Solomons Campaign and the carrier battles off Guadalcanal to wear the IJNAF down.

    Before Midway, there was no thought or talk of taking offensive action against the Japanese. After the victory at Midway, that all changed.
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,312
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Location:
    Michigan
    Pre Midway the US was strategically on the defensive and Japan on the offensive. Not so post Midway. Now one could argue that even a win by Japan at Midway might have them going over to the defensive but the US wouldn't be going on the offensive in that case for at least another 6 months or so.
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    11,577
    Likes Received:
    1,945
    And when did we invade CACTUS?
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,312
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Location:
    Michigan
    If we lost at Midway we wouldn't even have been doing the planning until the new ships started showing up that's very late 42 or early 43. The Battle for Guadalcanal started 2 months after Midway.
     
  9. Stuka1942

    Stuka1942 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    4
    There is no evidence they were aware that the Philippines threat could be toasted by the Hainan air forces...to a degree the disastrous losses incurred there on 8 December were a fluke.

    The unfortunate and unnecessary loss of B-17's is still controversial. MacArthur ducked the blame. Some kind of incompetence here, that to be fair, the enemy could not count on having happen. And yet, such "flukes" had a long sad history in WWII (Poland '39, Barbarossa '41, Luzon '41, Pearl Harbor '41, and probably some others). For some reason, peacetime air forces seemed incapable of instituting proper precautions when war clouds gathered. Do they think a standing air patrol is too expensive, as opposed to waiting until the whole air command is a smoking remnant?
     
  10. Stuka1942

    Stuka1942 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    4
    Further to the counterfactual history exercise, it comes more naturally to those of us oldies that grew up playing simulation wargames. Even the best written games only ever give an approximation of reality, but they can be strangely satisfying to play. It gave an amateur the opportunity to put on the hat of a general, strategic planner, or staff officer. If these sort of "what if" subjects are unpopular here, I don't mind avoiding them.
     
    JJWilson likes this.
  11. Stuka1942

    Stuka1942 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    4
    Thank-you Rich, for some info on the Tank Farms. Can anyone explain, however, why I would have got the impression (from books on Pearl Harbor) that this was the sum total of the fuel oil the Pacific Fleet had? Earlier posts listed availability in several west coast ports, which I presume they mean was there in Dec. '41. What I have read, made it sound like all the eggs were in one basket - that the Pac. Fleet would be hamstrung if it lost this one concentration of fuel oil. Did I interpret something wrong? Are these books old & missing newer info? I am somewhat baffled with this one. (You think you know something...turns out wrong.) Further info would be welcome.
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    11,577
    Likes Received:
    1,945
  13. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    786
    Like most complicated subjects, it tends to get boiled down to a reductio ad absurdam. The tank farms were expanded a number of times during the 1920s and 1930s as Pearl became more important as a base. It also meant the Navy could scrimp on fleet oilers, which meant that in the early war years there were shortages. Put the two together and you may presume if one or the other is knocked out, then the fleet is hamstrung. Except, the tank farm could be replaced by a regular stream of slow tankers, which weren't in short supply (well, until the Germans started sinking them right and left in 1942) and the fleet oiler program went into full gear when the balloon went up (from six in 1940 and six in 1941 to 19 in 1942 and 21 in 1943).

    Anyway, if you're interested in the actual state of the Navy fuel storage and expansion program, see Part IV Building the Navy's Bases in World War II [Chapter 12]
     
  14. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    Messages:
    17,454
    Likes Received:
    2,065
    Location:
    Alabama
    It was THE deciding factor in the war. The US outproduced all nations in war materials and controlled 75% of the oil produced worldwide.
     
  15. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    551
    Location:
    The Old Dominion
    Somewhat of a belated response, work and home duties take something of a priority over of messing around on discussion sites.

    My thanks to Richard and Larry for stepping up in my absence.

    My dear Stuka . . . were you to look closely you might note that the phrase “I wonder what this button does . .” appears below a faint grey line and not in the message area. This we call a “tag line,” and I’m not the only one here upon whose messages you might see one.

    It appears on anything I post, see below.


    If you are feeling even slightly clever, you can find in your profile where you, too, could place tag line for your posts if you so desire.

    Had I meant to give you offense, to insult you, believe me, there would have been no doubt in your mind, and you would not have had to ask . . . unless, of course, you are simply one of those looking to find any faint scent of offense when someone does not fall down before your theories.

     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    George Patton likes this.
  16. EKB

    EKB Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    41
    Before Midway there was disagreement in Japan about naval strategy.

    The IJN chiefs of staff were fixated on the South Pacific, demanding to seize and hold key islands to cut sea lines of communication between the United States and Australia. They were thinking about land grabs not decisive battles of annihilation. Admiral Yamamoto broke ranks and wanted to go on the offensive in the Central Pacific, with the idea of forcing the U.S. fleet to engage. What happened instead was a compromise.

    Osprey - Campaign 247 - Santa Cruz 1942 Carrier Duel In The South Pacific - PDF Free Download
     
  17. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    483
    Even in wartime, aircraft spend most of their time on the ground. With hindsight it's easy to say that so-and-so should have been on full alert at a certain time.
     
  18. Carronade

    Carronade Ace Patron  

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    483
    They had various models of Daihatsu, comparable to our LCVPs or LCMs, carried by transports. Ironically, once the war was underway, they started a fairly extensive program of LSTs, fast destroyer-type transports, and other landing ships.

    At the outset of the war, the Japanese executed a complex series of operations, but they don't seem to have the equivalent of any more than three divisions embarked simultaneously, and their transport forces included numerous minesweepers, submarine chasers, and other small craft.
     
  19. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    551
    Location:
    The Old Dominion
    It might be a lot of fun to watch daihatsu attempting to ply their trade in the midst of the, I guess, now, appropriate, Banzai Pipeline.
     
    RichTO90 likes this.
  20. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    786
    Yup, but no problem for Japanese SNLF Surf Ninjas! Here you see their stealth assault via the Banzai Pipeline!

    Seriously, the only viable beaches the Japanese might consider are the west side from Kaena Point SE down to Barbers Point or the eastern side from Kaneohe Bay NE to Kaaawa...which of course had also become bleedingly obvious to the Hawaiian Division in the previous twenty years. Then, of course, there is the not so minor problem that the 24th and 25th ID had just returned from the field on Saturday, following the nine days on alert after the war warning. AFAIK, the only thing they did different when they went out on Sunday was the laying down of the concertina, pickets, and trip wire obstacles. All the best positions and fields of fire for the machine guns and beach guns had been calculated and laid out over years of doing the same exercises over and over.

    Did someone say "Dieppe"? Or Salerno or Anzio. On the west side, there are actually Keawaula Beach, which is just around 1,300 yards long, overlooked by steep hills...and the only way in and out is NW or NE along the coast road. Then Makua Beach, which is barely 1,200 yards long, and also a cul de sac overlooked by steep hills. Ohikilolo Beach is only 300 yards long, so is pretty much impractical and has the same problems as the others. Then for about two miles south of those, west of Makau Kealau Forest there are a series of broken beaches, but with offshore shallows that make it impractical as well. Probably the most practical are the ten miles of beaches along Waianae and Nanakuli, but then they are also overlooked by the Akupu highlands and the exit inland takes them through Barbers Point...which by noon on 7 December was home for quite a few very pissed off Marines.
     

Share This Page