Northop P61-B "Black Widow"

just noted from 1999 interview with the 425th nfs CO the paperwork is some 8 pages long and this also includes information from the last squadron rep that I knew and was in contact with B. Anderson who flew Widow "Dangerous Dan".

at the height of the 425th nfs history there is a note that the unit had over 15 P-61's in service, 1 AT-6, 1 UC-78 and 6 A-20's.

the 425th nfs history continues in brief ~ after more bad weather and grounding of the crews 6 September more visuals on friendlies with B-24's and P-61's, 7th September socked in weather/fog, 8th September more visuals on "Friendlies" with 6 Widows in the air. on the 9th of September 2 aircraft on defensive patrols with # 50 and # 49 both in the air and both A/C had to abort and turn around to base due to faulty A-I radar controls. another nightie on 10th September with 8 A/C and pilot Yule in # 60 receives flak damage to his craft over St. Nazaire while the other Widows had no contacts.
September 11-13th 1944 the 425th nfs moves to A-58: Coulommiers and is non-operational

 

Erich, you must have tons of reports and other resources!

Ulrich

 

yes I do besides the information/documents personal reports and interviews I have amassed quite a bit of the same on the US 8th AF P-51 pilots that engaged the LW Me 262 during the day, have thought abut putting together a small volume just on that as there is only one book OOP produced on the engagements but nothing of specifics or length. then of course what I have on the Ju 88G-6 crews and their missions plus my work on the anti-mossie ops by German nfs during the war and then ................ several other ideas going through my head.

wonder if I should include some US Beufighter/Mossie ops here from the MTO squadrons like the 416th before they received their Widow P-61B's ? ........... nah not right now. I also have the 415th nfs microfishe as well but deeply buried and am not sure where I have laid it down. lets see I have the 416th, 417th and 418th nfs micro's all on one disk-roll, safely kept.

oh and back to the original with the 425th nfs, their GCI control in September 44 had a radius of 25 miles, still fighting terrible weather and ground fog on September 14-16th, 1944.

 

Erich, how many years will it cost to read all of thos reports?
Only 25 miles radius fro GCI? thought it was more...?

Ulrich

 

There's a very good book put out sometime ago on the overall uses of not only the P-61 but the A-20 and P-38 , it's titled "Queen of The Midnight Skies" a very thick and interetsing book on all the units of night fighters of the USAAF, it was put out by,Schiffer Military books and the ISBN for it is,0-88740-415-4 and it was published in 1992.
Johnny
P.S. anyone interested in leather unit patches of NFS etc units contact me, I make them, WeBeEmblems@aol.com

 

yes this is one of several of Papes books, excellent maybe the best one overall on the units, not sure how I like the way he has broken the chapters up though also a few errors included but what work does not have them. Pape should of done a day by day treatise but he did not, only overviews.

ok where are we ah yes............425th nfs

not much happening with the unit after their moved to A-58/Coulommiers on Sept 11-13, 44. more ground fog and visibility down to 0 at times. a few chases, German AA giving problems with Widows returning to base damaged. The pilots are getting frustrated as they are involved in some chases but lose them all...........
average up on each night 8 -14 Black Widows. September 23, 1944
Lewis up from 2308 to 0107 hrs in # 85 Follwed a B-17 which may according to his after action report was a He 177 which fired with it's rear 2cm cannon and tore the Widow to pieces luckily Lewis was able to land at base and the wings had to be replaced. A note that the fuselage was full of 13mm holes ( should of read 20mm).

422nd nfs after it's move to A-78/Florrennes Belgium on September 17-20, 1944 the unit stood down for another 2 days. On hand are 28 P-61's. the patrols are cut short for another 3 days due to shortage of fuel on the 23rd of September this being operation # 38. September 24, 1944 though an operation no-one made contacts. no operations the following evening on the 25th of September.

 

Hi Erich, thanks for the reports. I can imagine that there were only a few planes left from the Luftwaffe so that the chance to get an contact was low. But i am surprised that the german AA was so busy. I read at an other report that they were running out of ammo. Lucky man the pilot Lewis! Not the best to be on the wrong end of a 20mm. Had they often problems with shortages on fuel or ammo? Do you know how much flight hours the pilots have at average?

Regards

Ulrich

 

not sure of the average flight hours that would depend I feel on what pre-war training if they had it or at least what they acquired on the mainland. Gilly Lewis CO of the 425th nfs first had combat ops in the PTO before transfer to Europe.

the mention of Lewis in combat with the He 177 his "Wabash Cannon Ball" was destroyed and he was issued a new one. yes plenty of ground based Flak Ulrich and enough bombers and night fighters making the rounds but like with anything in the air at night luck goes to the Victor.

422nd nfs for SEptember 25/26, 1944

5 ? aircraft, the film was hard to read for this mission..........

10/10 overcast to 15,000 feet, Defensive Patrol

# 58 Johnson 0 had one contact but lost it.
# 38 Koehler 0 followed 2 Bogeys but lost both due to aircraft dropping Window
# 40 Spelis 0 uneventful
# 68 Axtell 0 followed 1 bogey but GCI called off chase because it was too far away.
# 47 Gordon from 2044/2140 hrs. P-61 followed aircraft to 600 feet, ID it as a Ju 188 (Ju 88 ?) doing 250 mph. Got to 400 feet behind and fired from 12 o'clock, the first burst set starboard engine on fire. The second burst into the port engine. The Ju then dove into the clouds in a tight spin and exploded in the air, east of Liege.

 

Erich, were all fights followed by GCI? And how made it the pilots with their won fights? Had the only to say " We shot one down" or had they to proof it by german reports? I suppose that the cameras wouldn´t be very helpful at night.

Ulrich

 

other side of the coin Ulrich the LW night fighter force was trying to chase the LSNF Mosquitos hanging around Berlin and causing nuisance to Goebbels and the hierarchy by using S/E Bf 109G-6/AS's of 10.(N)/JG 300 during the month of September 1944 .......

GCI was to aid the US crews to their targets really nothing more the R/O would confirm the target as being destroyed, radio'd it back in. Really it was just word of mouth with only a crew of 2. gun cameras were used but not with the greatest effect for ID'ing your opponent. the tragedy in March 1945 when 2 Do 217K's were claimed and supposed confirmed for the 422nd nfs when in reality they were 2 RAF Hudsons. there is gun camera film of one Hudson being shot down in flames and you cannot tell it is a Dornier at all.

Sadly the authors of the Widow books have not cross-checked German loss reports at all thus making their volumes incomplete. Too many preceptions over the years.

one advantage during 1945 though an increase in weight was the LW Ju 88G-6 with a crew of 3 later 4, with one literally as an observer to view the combats and make notation while he may or may not be busy operating the FuG 350Z Naxos while the first Bordfünker would operate the FuG 220d set or FuG 218 Neptun. Literally the observer would be the second Bordfünker but couild take over the rear gunners position if he was on the radio

 

....causing nuisance to Goebbels... HaHaHa... mainly they caused nuisance to Hermann "Maier" aka " Reichsjägermeister" Göring!!!

Ulrich

 

nope he was too busy goofing off on his estate in Ost Preußia.........the big fat hunter, though he would of made an excellent target.

in reality and have read through the book on his estate his place was one of beauty although the fat pompous bafoon would literally have Hirsch placed in strategic locations so he could shoot them with pride

 

Yes thats right Erich! BTW who was the Chief of the nightfighters?

Ulrich

 

422nd came up with 0 pretty much uneventful for some chases lost, 1 Me 410 (doubtful) was chased and lost, 1 P-38 ? chased at night in evasive maneuvers. another chase on the 29/30th of September involved a B-26 at night ?? ( well we know after the B-26's got shot up in July of 44 by S/E and T/E LW NF's this never happened again ). This was all over the countryside of Belgium and along the Franco-German border.

30 September 44 to October 1, 1944 all aircraft are grounded and missions cancelled due to repairs on the runways for the 422nd nfs.

chief of the NF's- the US or LW ?

 

Erich are there any detailed fighting reports from the NF´s?

I meant the US, the LW was Gen. Josef Kammhuber

Ulrich

 

do believe there was not a US NF Offizer in charge, the ETO units in Europe discounting those in the MTO - serving in Italy were under the overall command of the US 9th Air Force so were subject to there regulations. this may not help but the chief statistical officer for the US 425th nfs was 2nd Leutenant Gerald Pattee.

First two missions for the 425th nfs in October led to 0, one had his air speed indicator go out - # 83, pilot Byars. the 425th nfs is now changing over to true NF intercept patrols so in other words they are released for a Frei Jagd and not controlled to cover US ground forces on the advance but to take on anything the LW could put up in the air whether bombers or night fighters. the next couple of nights become interesting as the 425th nfs comes up short on tackling any LW night craft......... so tactics are changed.

 

Erich, it was on time to change the tactics. In my opinion the " Freie Jagd " is more effective than an guided action with the chance to get observed by the enemy.Also the instincts of the guys coming better in use with that kind of hunt.

Ulrich

 

the 422nd nfs stayed with defesnive patrols and then the change over to free interceptions finally............can imagine the crews were very happy with this. this did not happen for the 425th nfs as they were then ordered to have their Widows "bombed up" it was now time to attack German ground forces at night called "Rhubarb missions". Once the ground attack missions were reported successful or not then the Widow crews could go on the free nighties. Am digging up infor as I type this right now. side note am talking with C. Möller about a new possible 2nd edition of his NSGr book. have had 4 emails already with him today.

 

"Rhubarb Missions"...what a name! Great hopefully he will make the 2nd Edition, i would like to have one!
What would be your way of NF, the guided or the Free one?

Ulrich

 

Ulrich let me dance in the night without GCI .........

operation # 45, 3rd October 1944

8 A/C airborne. Rhubarb-intruder mission

this is real brief

# 80 Sartanowicz 1 Loco, 1 Train
# 83 Heflin 1 Loco and strafed a railroad station and yard
# 76 Bierer 1 Loco which exploded and 1 Train
# 82 Thompson 1 Loco which exploded, 1 Train then to another yard and did the same plus a signal tower. this was in the area of Saarbrucken.

Numerous freight and railroad cars shot up.

1,348 rounds of 20mm used.

7 A/C airborne on night intercept patrols in the area of Metz and Nancy. 0 contacts except for J. Slayton which caught up on 3 "Friendlies" in # 70 P-61 at 10,000ft directed by GCI between 1931/2212 hrs.