Older BBs at convoy escort against surface raiders.

Did the side armor on both ships go as far below the water line?

Haven't been able to find specific data. Hood had about 5000 tons of armor added during construction, including increasing the main belt from 8 to 12 inches, which caused her to draw about four feet more water than designed and put the lower edge of the belt that much lower. She had a reputation for being wet, often took water over the quarterdeck, and even had an unusually rate of tuberculosis among the crew! The RN were aware of the danger of diving shells, but I've never seen it cited as a factor in the tactics of Hood's last engagement - have you? - while many sources cite the concern about deck protection.

At the moment she was stricken, Hood would have been slightly less vulnerable to diving shell; the starboard heel caused by her turning to port would put the belt a bit lower. But apparently the experts have worked out that it was possible.

 

IIRC during operation Berlin the Germans refused battle three times with a slower British battleship, HMS Malaya, HMS Rodney and HMS Ramilles, the last one is an "R" but it seems to indicate using battleships to patrol the convoy areas or provide close escort was not that unusual. Using the French battleships for escort is a logistcal nightmare, those ships were metric and keeping them operational would be pretty hard.
The problem with slow battleship close escort is that a lone battleship may well deter a surface raider, but is a very juicy target for a sub especially if steaming at slow convoy speed that is around 8 knots, despite popular opinion there were very few uboats around in 1939 and 1940 but by 1941 the chances of meeting one were high and the result could be real bad, the WW1 era ships were very vulnerable to modern torpedoes as Royal Oak and Barham showed. The Italians dis a couple of "Battleship convoys" to NA before fuel shortages prevented doing more, IIRC RN Cesare with convoy M42 and RN Doria with convoy M43.

The WW2 AMCs proved ineffective, whenever they got into combat they where usually overwhelmed with little loss to the opponent even against the very ships they were designed to counter like KMS Thor.

 

This page suggest otherwise: Ahoy - Mac's Web Log - 23 Tables 1,2, and 3

 

The problem with slow battleship close escort is that a lone battleship may well deter a surface raider, but is a very juicy target for a sub especially if steaming at slow convoy speed that is around 8 knots

That did happen once, to Malaya while escorting a convoy from Sierra Leone to the UK. According to the wiki entry on Malaya the U-boat skipper did not identify her or target her deliberately:

She was damaged by a torpedo from U-106 at 2323 on 20 March 1941. U-106 attacked the shadow of a merchant ship with a spread of two stern torpedoes in bad light from the port side of the convoy SL-68 about 250 miles west-northwest of the Cape Verde Islands. Kapitänleutnant Jürgen Oesten heard hits after 2 minutes 37 seconds and 3 minutes 35 seconds. One torpedo damaged Malaya and the other the Meerkerk. Malaya was hit by the torpedo on the port side, causing considerable damage. Due to the flooding of some compartments the ship took a list of 7 degrees, but safely reached Trinidad. After temporary repairs were made, she continued to the New York Navy Yard, where she was docked for four months.

 

Can't find any evidence there on the usefuleness of the British AMCs in WW2, the German Hilfskeuser are a different story and IMO rather different ships despite the similarities.

 

Ahh I thought you were using it as a more general term, i.e. armed merchant. Ironically the Stephen Hopkins did manage to a good performance in that role even if they got sunk in the process.

How many AMC's actually engaged in combat? The Rawapindi is the only one that comes to the top of my mind and nothing short of a relativly new battleship would have stood much of a chance in her positoin.

 

You mean that you do not have an app for that?

 

LWD,

You can't forget the HMS Jervis Bay vs Admiral Scheer. It has been argued that the engagement was a British victory - as it allowed the convoy the Jervis Bay was escorting to scatter and the majority of them escaped.

There was also the one-on-one engagement between the HMS Voltaire and the hilfskreuzer Thor. The Thor dominated the battle, but it took her over an hour and the expenditure of more than half her ammunition to do so.

HMS Hector was in dry dock in the process of being decommissioned when the Japanese sank her during Operation C, however I don't see that as being "in combat."

Further "Mac" presents a rather grimmer picture concerning English AMCs.

Ahoy - Mac's Web Log - Allied Armed Merchant Cruisers of WW2


I guess we should also add the Japanese AMCs to the mix, still they performed rather poorly also. The most "famous" battle being between the Japanese AMCs Hokoku Maru & Aikoku Maru vs the Royal Dutch Shell tanker Odina & the Indian minesweeper HMIS Bengal. The Hokoku Maru is lost when a shell from the Odina detonates one of her loaded torpedo tubes and the ensuing fire sets off an ammunition magazine - in return, both the Odina & Bengal are damaged, but both safely make it to friendly ports(Odina heads to Fremantle & Bengal goes to Diego Garcia).


The Americans experienced a few successes with AMCs during the Spanish-American War, but abandoned the concept following World War I.

 

KMS Thor had also had earlier succesful encounters with HMS Alcantara and HMS Carnarvon Castle before meeting the unlucky HMS Voltarie, as the AMCs where meant to counter just ship like her I consider them mostly a failure, IMO the liner hulls the British used, while fast, where too large targets than the more compact fast cargo based Germans .
In WW1 we also had a one on one match between armed merchant ships and in that instance HMS Carmania (8 x 4.7") sank SMS Cap Trafalgar (2 x 4.1" and six small caliber guns) in a close fight.

In addition to the British, Germans and Japanes the Italians also commisioned 29 AMCs as escorts though the two RAMB (fast cargoes designed to carry bananas so a lot more similar to the refrigerator ships the Germans converted than to the British liners) intended for raiding never made an offensive cruise, After they left Massaua with still untrained crews for Japan RAMB I was sunk by HMAS Leander in a combat just as unbalanced HMS Jervis Bay vs Admiral Scheer, as an interesting note is she rose the Marina Mercantile rather tham the Regia Marina flag before openiing fire so her status at the time is a bit in doubt, and RAMB II made it to Japan but was operated as a cargo ship as the Japanes didn't want to breach neutrality by supporting her as a raider.

 

Not very well known is that most of the credit should go to the CP ship "Beaverford", which in fact managed to occupy the Adm. Scheer for several hours after Jervis Bay was sunk and allowed most of the convoy to escape
http://merchantships.tripod.com/cprships1.html