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Operation Sealion - Possible? Outcome?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Andreas Seidel, Sep 26, 2001.

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  1. Jumbo_Wilson

    Jumbo_Wilson Member

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    I'd only bet on Goring if it was an eating competition...
     
  2. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Or dropping barbs by the handful ! Hmmmmm I wonder why the Luftwafe pilots always called him "Fatty" during mid 44 onward...... ?

    E
     
  3. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    OK, Martin! But I will not make you happy by giving you the opportunity of shooting me down!

    It is rather plausible that Friedrich crashes his 109 some seconds after he takes off (and that is if he can take off!!!) :D
     
  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    More weird stuff from Otto Skorzeny´s book:

    On his famous speech on 4th June 1940, Curchill said:

    "..we will fight on the beaches, at the landing sites, we will fight on the land and in the streets!"

    The Deacon of Canterbury later stated that the speaker placed a hand over the microphone at the moment and added " and we will throw beer glasses in their faces, for that is in fact all we have."

    :D
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Notes from Skorzeny´s book on Canaris:

    On July 7 1940 Canaris gave Keitel confidential information which stated that the Germans would meet about twenty first-line divisions in an eventual landing in England, with another nineteen in reserve. However, in his memoirs Montgomery stated that at this time there was only one adequately armed and equipped division available, namely the 3rd under the command of Monty himself.

    The false information by Canaris explains the demands made by Generalfeldmarschall von Brauchitsch, whom Hitler entrusted with the overall command of the landing forces: he wanted to land on a wide front with 41 divisions, six of these panzer divisions and three motorized. Grossadmiral Raeder naturally answered with a non possumus; he didn´t have enough ships to cover the landing at sea and furthermore demanded total air superiority on the part of Luftwaffe.

    Churchill gave following "confession" to the officers of the Home Guard on May 12 1940:

    "After the fall of France we were not only a people without an army, but also a people without arms. If the enemy had fallen from the sky or landed in various parts of the country, he would have found only a handful of poorly-armed men guarding searchlight positions."

    -------------

    For myself the invasion of England with the knowledge given in this section seems impossible even with total control of air space by Luftwaffe. The channel currents and the Royal Navy to handle..
    Anyway, these are facts that I find enjoyable to bring up," spicing the food " I like to think.

    :D
     
  6. Andreas Seidel

    Andreas Seidel Member

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    May 12 1940 must be wrong, this is long before France fell.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Indeed, you´re right Andreas. I checked the book and May it is and 1940 as well. Must be a mistake and passed through me as well.
    No referrence so cannot tell the exact time, but later than mentioned here anyway.
    Thanx!
     
  8. erik.hillis

    erik.hillis Member

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    For those interested, there is a show on tomorrow on History Television (for the Canadians here), called "When Hitler Invaded Britain" - Tomorrow at 7:30. I have seen it before, and look forward to seeing it again tomorrow.
     
  9. pillboxesuk

    pillboxesuk Member

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    Not sure if this has already been posted, but are you aware of the 1974 wargame played at the Staff College, Sandhurst. The wargame was based on the known plans of each side, plus previously unpublished Admiralty weather records for September 1940. Each side (played by British and German officers respectively) was based in a command room, and the actual moves plotted on a scale model of SE England constructed at the School of Infantry. The panel of umpires included Adolf Galland, Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert.

    Even without air supremacy the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England using a minefield screen in the English Channel to protect the initial landings from the Royal Navy. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies from the German beachhead, isolating them and forcing their surrender.


    The results were used in a book, 'Sealion' by Richard Cox

    [ 25. October 2005, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: pillboxesuk ]
     
  10. pillboxesuk

    pillboxesuk Member

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  11. Hands

    Hands Member

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    I was wondering if Italy had been successful in North Africa, would their naval power (now free to roam the mediterran) helped Germany achieve what many people though was impossible ?

    Italy does have a good ship building capability.
     
  12. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Without any airbases close by, Malta could have been taken with a blockade if the Brits didn't abandon it beforehand. It would have been an Italian lake but the British could still carry the fight from Egypt and the Yanks from Morocco.
     
  13. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    Plans to invade England could have been realized at the expense of many German soldiers lost due to inadequate logistical support. This result could have been achieved in the later half of 1940. These plans if executed would have precluded the invasion of Russia. The end result would have been Germany greatly depleted in resources in all military areas and in similar conditions that England found itself after Dunkirk.

    What would have happened next? </font>
    • Stagnation of German military ambitions in Europe?</font>
    • Russian invasion due to weakened German forces?</font>
    • Peace proposal from England while they hold the threat of some military superiority?</font>
    • Change in the axis of advance of German advance to Africa since too weak to attack Russia?</font>
     
  14. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Germany would have to accomplish several things:

    -Establish a secured route across the channel
    -Establish air superiority over this route to protect the suppy traffic
    -Use Luftwaffe to attack any Royal Navy ships threatening this supply route
    -Focus U-Boat operations around this route
    -have Advanced airfields secured by parachute drops

    Losses would be heavy on both sides but once Germany gained a bridge head and advance airfields, she could have taken the island.
     
  15. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    I've seen the Sandhurst stuff before. I don't buy the accuracy of the outcome. Having some experiance with "professional" wargaming (Naval War College in my case) they have become too political and officious to be objective. Where there is a vested interest and someone high in the power structure that backs that interest the results will show how "good" the idea is.
    Also, the models used do not even begin to account for all of the screw ups and other problems that would occur in the real case.
    Having gone over this at length in the past repeatedly, the best the Germans could have gotten from Seelöwe was an amphibious landing that would have made Anzio look like a strategic success of gigantic proportion.
     
  16. John Dudek

    John Dudek Member

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    The one common thread that all of these war games seems to produce, is that the Germans could indeed land their troops wherever they chose.

    The main problem is one of logistics- the act of sustaining their forces in the field once the battle is indeed joined.

    Once the Germans are ashore, how can they re-inforce and re-supply those troops, in the face of total commitment by the RAF and Royal Navy? Everything that the German troops need has to come from France.

    There would be no English seaports captured intact, much like what happened in France in 1944. This was made so much the worse as the Germans had few, actual landing craft and would be relying largely on ad-hoc amphibious vessels of questionable value and merchant ships dragooned for that purpose.

    These ships would all be "Easy Meat" in a "Target-Rich Environment" for the Royal Navy Destroyers and Cruisers.

    The Kriegsmarine simply did not have the wherewithal to support such a major invasion over so large a body of unpredictable and weather-swept, English Channel water.

    The Luftwaffe could not be everywhere at once, supporting the invasion, while bombing the British airfields, "softening-up" strategic targets, plus targets of opportunity and lastly, attempting to interdict the Royal Navy in its anti-invasion operations.

    Lastly, once a lodgement was made along the coast, the Germans would be facing ever increasing numbers of British Army Troops, using their excellent, interior lines of communication to reach the invasion beaches, to counter and finally destroy the German threat.
     
  17. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    One of the things that I have never heard anyone advance here is the possibility of using an invasion fascade to lure the Royal Navy and the RAF into battle.

    Suppose the Germans landed airborne forces and a first wave of amphibious forces. They then commit the Luftwaffe and the Kreigsmarine to destroying the responding planes and ships. Boats cross the channel pulling barges, but barges full of decoys. The only real troops are the first wave and the paratroopers. Germany commits to fully supplying this smaller force so that they can contiue to harry the defenders and make them believe the invasion is on for real. They also commit to bringing them back if at all possible. Everyone in England scrambles to rise to the challenge. The Royal Navy rushes everything they have to the defense. Now the target-rich environment is in the other player's court. Mines and torpedo boats as well as planes take their toll on the Royal Navy. Goering gets his wish of having the RAF come up to fight because they believe this is a last ditch effort to save their homes. The divisions in place around the country scramble to respond revealling their real strength. Could this have been a workable scheme to draw out the British forces and damage or cripple them?
     
  18. bigiceman

    bigiceman Member

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    Whoops [​IMG]
     
  19. Hands

    Hands Member

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    Now that's a very very interesting scenario!

    Wonder whether this idea has occured in Hitler's plan ? Or perhaps Hitler didnt want to trick or lure the British, simply he wants to destroy them.
     
  20. Ali Morshead

    Ali Morshead Member

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    bigiceman,

    Its an expensive way of finding out British reactions.

    Maybe purely the dummy sea landing could have been as effective.

    Most people seem to concentrate on the problems of the Germans, without considering that the Brits would have have there own problems. There is also the habit of overestimating the abilities of the British Army. You hear of the Australian Division, really 1 trained Bde and another made up of reos and excess suppport troops, The Enzeds were also not a full Division.

    I would bring your example back to a dummy sea landing and a small (battalion?) airborne landing using Brandenburgers and scatter them all over Southern England. Bring the RN & RAF to battle by continual fighter sweeps and low level Ju88 raids on airfields, especially those actually used by Fighter Command. A "fleet" setting out from Norway/Denmark would be good as well.

    But the Allies had 3-4 years to work out FORTITUDE but we need the Germans to do the same in a month or two.
     
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