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Overclaiming

Discussion in 'Other Weapons' started by Proeliator, Feb 16, 2010.

  1. Proeliator

    Proeliator Member

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    Kruska,

    I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree about the act of deliberately overclaiming. It was simply not accepted in either the German army or airforce, and if caught doing it you were severely punished (It was the same in the US & British military). The press ofcourse didn't fall in under this category and could write as high figures as they wished, hence some of the stories out there of single men taking on entire regiments and getting away with it unscaved. But inside the actual military lying about kills & feats wasn't an option, it was expressively forbidden to do so infact as it would screw up the all important statistics made regarding the combat effectiveness of certain weapons systems. Accurate figures from the front was essential for the statisticians back home who had to calculate what was needed where and when and in which direction the war went.

    Also the excuse that people were afraid of disappointing Hitler and therefore didn't tell him the truth is completely untrue, it has no foundation in reality, sorry. Hitler was given the truth, and a lot of his generals felt for that. Hitler had this tandrums for a reason; he regularly got bad news. But unlike Stalin Hitler didn't shoot the men who brought him bad news, the worst that could happen was that you were left out of the decision making at the higher ranks, and that usually only happened if you made a miltary blunder of some sort. Only people who were deemed direct enemies of the state were shot.

    Also Tiger crews never even placed a single thought towards what Hitler would think of them abandoning their tank. The reason they would go back for an abandoned tank when they could was because they were valuable machines and they knew that, furthermore the Allies did exactly the same when they could. Also the Germans werent going to leave anything for the enemy to potentially use against them, so if they assessed that the equipment they were leaving behind couldn't be brought back later then they would blow up that equipment.


    As for the LW, well it actually had one of the most stringent claim confirmation procedures in the world back then, even more strict than that of the USAAF & RAF. And yet overclaiming was still an issue, but it had nothing to do with deliberate overclaiming, only the confusing nature in which air combat was conducted.

    Luftwaffe demands for confirmation of claims:

    1. Without a witness, a Luftwaffe fighter pilot had no chance to have his victory claim confirmed. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond group level.

    2. The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film or by at least one other human witness. The witness could be the German pilot's wingman, squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter.

    3. There was no possibility, as with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claiming officer was a gentleman and a man of his word. The German rule was simply "no witness - no kill."

    4. The German system was impartial, inflexible, and far less error-prone than either the British or American procedures. German fighter pilots had to wait several months, a year, or sometimes even longer for a kill confirmation to reach them from the German High Command (OKL).


    Regarding overclaiming during WW2:
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    there were many overclaims in the LW both day and night, there is some doubt as to how many kills calaimed by Jg 301 with the Ta 152H. 26 November 44 comes to mind my cousins JG 301 intercepted B-17's and B-24's and in the chaos claimed to have shot down 56 bombers alone ! truth is they were given 26 B-24's and about 4 B-17's.

    Kurt Welter of Komando Welter fame flying the 262 at night has been given numerous Mossie claims when in fact there were NO Mosquito's lost on the claimed night besides given credit for at least 5 others that were actually shot down by his own pilots. Kurt was a great propaganda influence to the moral of the German populace in 44-45 when the German folk had nothing to believe in anymore and this was also the case for successful LW day fighter pilots. the idea of holding on that a witness had to present could not be the case when in later 44-45 the German day fighter pilot had to run for his life when the P-51 was about and unless he had a gun-camera installed then all he could do was reprot an Abschuss hoping the administration would accept and deliver in the time alloted. One thing you must remember is that by October of 44 with the decrease in the TR efficincy the "put in" for kills diminished at such a state that reports were no longer acceptable nor counted and only through the group historian hopefully that verification could be put into the crewmans flugbuch.

    E ~
     
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  3. hucks216

    hucks216 Member

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  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    holy crap hucks you would bring up some pretty old links as I participated in the axisforums one 6 years ago ...yikes. since then I have had a good look at several LW flugbuchs and talked with more LW veterans first hand. things do not add up as they seem to be and the old myth generated by firms such as Osprey pubs seem to still hold truth in the water.

    one of the tell tales is the new two volume set by Theo Boiten/Rod McKenzie, and have talked at length with the latter author for 1945 L:W night claims. I will not have to repeat again what I stand by in my first posting.
     
  5. hucks216

    hucks216 Member

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  6. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    From Hahn's "Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945, Band 2"

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    at the risk of being chastized new evidence is being revealed that the leading LW ace E. Hartmann was well short of even 200 victories to his credit and most likely G. Rall was the leading craftsman of his trade............. bummer for those E. Hartmann worshippers.

    E ~
     
  8. hucks216

    hucks216 Member

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    I can't remember where (and may well be one of the links above) but I recently read that a Russian historian has so far only been able to verify 80 of Hartmann's claims, which while still a respectable total is far less then the history making figure that has always been quoted.
    And has Hans-Joachim Marseille's famous 17 aerial victories in one day ever been verified from RAF loss records?
     
  9. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello Proeliator,
    Hitler had no grudges? You must be joking – maybe you start reading on the below posted names – Hausser is a very good example of how disobedience or „disrespect“ towards Hitler was handled - and in Hausser's case not just simply against Hausser himself.
    Onother fellow had to take the kick in the nuts for Hausser.

    Can you imagine what those Majors, Captains, Sergeants and Privates must have felt or expected to happen if they would have refused to cooperate with the NAZI system??? Upon just reading the below list?

    Ernst Röhm, SS-Obergruppenführer Hausser, Generalfeldmarschall von Brauchitsch, Generalfeldmarschall von Blomberg,Generalfeldmarschall von Leeb, Generalfeldmarschall von Rundstedt, Generalfeldmarschall Kleist, Generalfeldmarschall List, Generaloberst Werner von Fritsch, Generaloberst Halder, Generaloberst Hoepner, Generaloberst Guderian, General Hossbach General Schleicher, Generalmajor von Bredow, Generalleutnant Galland,

    Oberst Luetzow and the Fighter Pilots' Mutiny
    The outcome was devastating. In 1945, blamed by German dictator Adolf Hitler and Hermann Göring for the collapse of Germany's air defense against Anglo-American bombing raids, Adolf Galland was relieved of his command. Johannes Steinhoff was threatened with court-martial and sent to Italy, and Göring told Günther Lützow that he was going to be shot for high treason. Similar penalties were imposed upon others in the so called "mutiny". Subsequently Gordon Gollob was appointed General der Jagdflieger.

    BTW, Luetzow was not shot but his career had ended now for sure, since after the SS incident in 1942 had already hampered his career wildly.

    I have spoken to at least 7-8 former Luftwaffe pilots (2 survivors in my own Family) – none of them doubted or countered the issue of false claims not just being due to confusion but mostly due to “expectations” and career.

    What makes you think that every time a wingman was around? or could actually follow up on a “Kill”. My father had several times like other “alte Hasen” (Elder experienced) pilots ordered their wingman’s back, upon sighting “unfavorable” conditions.

    Regards
    Kruska
     
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  10. Proeliator

    Proeliator Member

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    Kruska,

    Nothing makes me think that there was a wing man around every time, or that all kills could be followed up upon. Infact I said the exact opposite. Many times there were no witnesses, and in that case the claimed kill was not confirmed. As explained by Erich as-well.

    Sorry but I simply don't believe that deliberate overclaiming was a common practice, esp. since such acts would've been extremely counter productive for the Germans.

    Also I never claimed Hitler had no grudges, I said he didn't shoot people for merely letting him down, which is something that can't be said about Stalin. German soldiers didn't lend a single thought to what Hitler would think when for example they were abandoning some equipment, and they didn't have to either cause you weren't shot for retreating in the German military like you were in the Soviet one for example.
     
  11. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Another problem with claims is that frequently more than ome pilot, tank crew, are in on a kill not knowing that others are too. This too leads to overclaiming.
     
  12. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Proeliator,

    Where did Erich say that? "even no plane around - numerous kills were awarded" that is what Erich wrote.
    Nothing about a wittnessing wingman - in contra even the wingman then must have wittnessed something that obviously never happened right??

    I will leave the believe to you or whatever - I believe my father his friends and logical accounts where both sides reports are matched/evaluated.

    Another good example was media star Marseille.
    He and two other pilots encountered a "group" of allied a/c's
    Marseille was awarded 7 kills, one guy got 4/5 and the 3rd was given 2or3

    So in total that allied "group" must have consisted of at least 13-15 a/c right? meaning a squadron.
    Well the allied records for that day and time show:
    2 a/c lost, 1 returned damaged and 1 missing/unconfirmed.

    So Marseille and his wingman mistakenly evaluated a group of 2-3 aircraft kills as that of a squadron? in order to justify the witness protocols? or what about the "other" 10-12 allied a/c still flying around? which somehow the witnesses missed out on.

    Again you seem to be missing the point. The Germans especially the military knew what it ment not to live up to the expectation of the Nazi's chain of command + for some promotion and Lametta for the sore neck.

    Only Stalin? you mean he shot people himself?
    Hitlers orders and policy made about 0.7 million Germans see the KZ from inside - tens of thousands died. Thousands of soldiers were send to Punishbataillions and 20,000+ were court-martialed and shot.
    Surely not by Hitler himself and they weren't just punished for steeling cigarettes or having exeeded their leave.
    The term "dissobeying and failing" on orders was a wide spectrum used by superiors.
    Read the book Tiger in the East or Eastprussia it states very clearly the "concern" of crews and superiors towards abandoned Tigers.

    You should watch some of those German newsreels from Feb 45 to April45, not just for the action but for evaluation.

    The whole German army depicted therein was entirely fitted with Tigers, Panthers, Stg44's, Goliath's and V2's. A couple off blown up T-34 and JS2 are shown over and over again (same ones different angle) with the speaker mentioning hundreds of Bolshevic tanks. The sound of the speaker makes you shiver, and you get the feeling that Germany is going to overrun the Russians by tomorrow and then will be heading straight to Moscow.
    Goebbels quickly upgrades about 20-30 thousand dead in Dresden to 300,000.
    My mother heard in the radio about heaviest combat pushing back the Americans, whilst the GI's were already talking to her about taking over her apartment.
    Thousands of German civilians were hung in April/May for simply urging Wehrmachtsoldiers to stop fighting.

    And you will off course walk up to your superior and tell him, sorry Boss no kills today?

    Regards
    Kruska
     
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  13. Proeliator

    Proeliator Member

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    You need to re-read Erich's post Kruska, he said kills from other pilots were awarded to single "Heros" within the squadron. He didn't say anywhere that there was deliberate overclaiming going on.

    And again regarding Hitler, no'one was afraid of disappointing him as you claim, heck his own generals frequently got into heated discussions with him, and yet they weren't shot. The worst that happened was that you were deranked or left out. And the soldiers at the front cared absolutely nothing about what Hitler thought when they were in action, they did was they thought suited the situation best, exactly as they were taught from the beginning.

    Also don't ever confuse the German press with the German military. As already explained the press could write and present what they wanted to, the military couldn't, and that for their own best. Deliberate overclaiming in the military was strictly forbidden and seriously punished if exposed as committed. What the press did to cheer up the public was another matter.
     
  14. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Proeliator;
    No, I don’t because now you are citing another sentence from Erich, and by doing so you are now actually confirming already what my father and other pilots told me, lying about Kill awards – awarding other pilot kills or claiming other pilot kills. And this was done by the Luftwaffe and not the Press.

    Post from Erich:

    The way I read it is; Welter was given numerous Mossie claims when in fact there were no Mosquitos lost, Besides (meaning further claims/awards at least five) on behalf of other pilots kills. = a double cheat

    Obviously you don't know who Ernst Roehm was and how many other people got murdered together with him (because they were all gay or what? - and someone being gay-to me and my father doens't justify murdering them), and you did not read up on the list of ranks I gave you. Obviously you never cared to think why Germans were send to the KZ (Because theywere all commies and socialists?). The scene in Downfall - were Hitler is fantasizing about divisions and calling his Generals cowards, and no-one dares to speak up aginst him is based on historical accounts - it is not Hollywood. And believe it or not, until today military ranks DIT NOT WANT TO BE DERANKED OR LEFT OUT.
    The German soldier thought every day before and after his actions about Hitler - even by simply thinking - how is my wife, my children, my family am I still going to live tomorrow = who the F*** send me here in the first place. Answer Hitler. Why am I here? In order to free the world from scum and unworthy live = Hitler. They thought every damn day about Hitler and his visions and orders.
    The Haltebefehl - was an order by Hitler - it cost hundreds of thousands of German lives - it was followed by more or less every German General. His Kommissarbefehl was followed - why because nobody thought about the consequenzes about not caring for Hitlers thoughts and orders?

    The Wehrmacht soldiers and SS had to shot hundreds of thousands of civilians and Jews - because they wanted to so for the fun of it - or because Hitler thought it to be that way?

    The Press didn't come up with those figures by looking at the cristal ball. They were directed by the Information Ministery (Goebbels) who in return was informed by the Press department of the e.g. Luftwaffe. It was Goerings own department (Oberst Schmidt IIRC) who forwarded the collection of reports e.g. during the BoB, and therefore arrived at the conclusion that the RAF fielded less then a hundred a/c even though they still had about 700.

    The document m_kenny posted is not a Press document - is it? it states "Gemeldete Verluste" = Reported/claimed Losses. Reported/claimed by who in the first place? - the Press?

    Kruska
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    It's clear that overclaiming was indemic. However on a previous discusion of this topic (likely in one of the threads previously mentioned) ana anlysis was presented by unit ant time. There was considerable variation with some units being very close and others habitually being pretty bad. Some changed with geography, time, and/or unit commander. Given that it's hard to justify saying that at least some of it wasn't deliberate.
     
  16. Vinny Maru

    Vinny Maru Member

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    A book I read many years ago said that Marseille returned from a mission claiming multiple kills, but his guns had not been fired.
     
  17. Proeliator

    Proeliator Member

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    Kruska,

    You are confusing discipline with the soldiers actually giving a damn about Hitler when going back for a tank. They went back for their equipment because they knew it was expensive and because they wanted to win. Hitler didn't even enter the equation.

    Soldiers weren't held responsible, the generals were, and despite this the generals often got into heated arguments with Hitler, and they were never shot for it.

    In short the decision making of the individual soldier Hitler had no control over, he just gave out the orders to his generals who then gave it on to the field commanders who then gave it on to the troops. The troops were then told the objectives which needed be reached, and by what'ever means they were to achieve it didn't matter, as long the goal was reached. That's how it was done in the German army, it was all about the commanders and squad leaders being allowed to be flexible in their methods & tactics, placing great emphasize on the initiative of the individual soldier.

    And regarding the LW, I simply don't believe that they ever deliberately overclaimed and got it confirmed. They might have redirected the kills to other pilots, but the squadron tally remained the same.
     
  18. Kruska

    Kruska Member

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    Hello Proeliator,

    sorry for asking, but do you know about or understand "chain of command"? in German Befehlskette.
    That means you Private are responsible to your superior, and so on.
    The Colonel orders the Major, the Major orders the Captain, and so on.

    In order for a General (in any army) or Hitler not having to talk or discuss with a captain or private, for this you follow the chain of command.

    In short about the decision making of the individual soldier, Hitler had absolute control via the "chain of command".

    In regards to the Luftwaffe overclaims:
    Certainly - and this was never excluded by me - many overclaims are a result of confusion (which already proofs that the wingman concept obviously didn't work)

    How someone confuses 4 aircrafts for 15 - well.. (see Marseille example)

    In my fathers case:
    He was summoned to the Gruppen Kommandeur - who pushed a piece of paper to him stating that two witnesses saw that he shot 2 enemy aircraft and was asked to sign - he wasn't even congratulated by the Gruppen Kommandeur.

    Well he did't sign - how many did? according to him some "disshonorable scumbags did" - he was lucky being relegated from a fighter wing to being a courier pilot. (they had a somehow very big shortage of Luftwaffe pilots in September 1940) ;). (At that time 1940 he was a Oberleutnant - in April 45 he was still an Oberleutnant). Effects by chain of command - got it?

    So for deliberate false claims - well I leave that up to you, if you wan't to believe it or not.
    I have said my part on this already in several posts.

    Regards
    Kruska
     
  19. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

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    You have never served in any army have you?

    No actual fighting in a shooting war, or peacekeeping missions or just production of force.


    Kruska

    You'd better leave this one to his own.
     
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  20. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    For what it' worth..From the LUFTWAFE DATA BOOK (1977)...Dr Alfred Price, (Book based on the long out of print "Lufwaffe Handbook"). Dr Price served as an aircrew officer in the RAF, with a flying career of 15 years, and has no less than 40 books on aviation subjects to his credit.


    Page 247...The Luftwaffe Fighter Aces Victory Scores

    "Over the years there has been controversy, much of it ill-informed, concerning the validity of the German fighter aces victory claims. Major Erich Hartmann, the top scorer in the Luftwaffe, is credited with 352 victories; 35 German pilots are credited with victory totals exceeding 150. On the other hand, Group Captain "Johnny" Johnson, the RAF top scorer, is credited with 'only' 38 victories; Major Richard Bong, the top scoring USAAF pilot, is credited with 40, and Guards Colonel Ivan Kozhedub, the top scoring Soviet Air Force pilot, is credited with 62. If the German pilots victory claims are accurate, why was there such a great disparity in the claims of the different nations' pilots? Were the top German fighter aces eight or nine times as good as those of the Allied Air Forces?
    This author has no evidence that top German fighter pilots were any better than their Allied counterparts. The main difference between them was that German pilots had greater opportunities to amass large scores than Allied pilots - IF they survived long enough. During the early part of the war the Luftwaffe often went into action against opponents with inferior training and equipment, and these opponents suffered accordingly. The days of the 'easy' victories soon passed, however, and from the beginning of 1943 the Luftwaffe faced a hard fight on all fronts. To survive for any length of time against numerically superior enemy forces, a German pilot needed to be good and he needed to be lucky. For those who knew their business, however, there were usually plenty of enemy aircraft to pick off.
    Another important factor that assisted German fighter pilots to amass large scores was that they did not fly limited tours of combat duty like those in the RAF and USAAF. Take the top scorer, Erich Hartmann, who joined JG 52 on the Eastern Front in October 1942. He flew on operations almost continuously from then until the end of the war, with only short breaks for leave. By the end of October 1943 his score had reached 148 and in March 1944 it passed the 200 mark. He flew more than 800 operational missions, an average of nearly one per day over a 2 and one half year period, and on average gained one victory per 2 and one half sorties. No British or American pilot was allowed to fly combat missions for such a long period without a break. At the peak of their scoring careers there were several Allied fighter pilots who achieved victories at the same rate as Hartmann. However, none did so for more than a few months before being sent on a rest tour.
    Some writers havee uggested that Dr. Goebbels propaganda service inflatedthe victory scores of the individual German pilots. This author has studied these claims in detail and can assert with confidence that this was not the case. The Germans are nothing if not good bureaucrats. Before a victory claim was confirmed it underwent rigorous checking by the ABSCHUSSKOMISSION (the Commission for Adjudication of Victory Claims). No claim was even considered unless there was an independant witness to the action, or a wrecked enemy aircraft that appeared to link with the claim. If the action took place over German held territory and no wreck was found, a pilot would have considerable difficulty getting the victory confirmed. No credit was given for shared or probable victories. If more than one fighter pilot had engaged the enemy aircraft shot down, the pilot judged to have played the major part in it's destruction recieved the credit.
    This is not to say that every German pilot's victory score was 100% accurate. The Abschusskommission was not perfect. Sometimes, mistakes were made, and in all Air Forces there were some pilots who claimed dishonestly in action. But the German organisation was as effective as could be expected in time of war, and it was more thorough than any counterpart run by the Allies.
    To sum up, the German fighter pilots' victories were recorded as accurately as could be expected in time of war- and certainly more accurately than those of their British and American counterparts. The German pilots scores were higher than those achieved in other air-forces because they had greater opportunities to achieve victories, and they spent longer periods in frontline operations."

    The findings of Dr. Price are more than backed up by claims made by USAAF air GUNNERS, who were notorious for claiming kills of their "little friends" AND other gunners from the same formation. Trigger happy and cocky, their claims for the twin Schwienfurt-Regensburg missions exceeded 100 Luftwaffe aircraft, and they consistantly overclaimed for their entire service period in Europe as a group.

    BTW....The top scoring fighter pilot for the Polish Campaign (Jentzen) amassed 8 victories in a 17 day period, with his last four claims all on the LAST day of the campaign! He was one of a number of other pilots that could ALL have taken the laurels for the campaign, but missed out due to Jentzen's multiple kills. On the last official day of Operations over Poland, Jentzen was only one of two pilots with more than one claim for the day....

    Regards
    VB
     
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