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Panzer IV Question

Discussion in 'The Tanks of World War 2' started by Boba Nette, Nov 25, 2007.

  1. Boba Nette

    Boba Nette New Member

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    What exactly is a Panzer IV Ausf.E 'Vorpanzer'?
    It's the 'Vorpanzer' part I don't get.
     
  2. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    It was a tank wich had with an extra plate of armour put on (spaced armour).

    [​IMG]

    This one has an extra plate for the gunner but the plate before the vision slit is removed.
     
  3. Boba Nette

    Boba Nette New Member

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    Was that a common practice?
     
  4. Ome_Joop

    Ome_Joop New Member

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    I don't think so as i've never heared of it before...

    http://www.history.jp/wehrmacht/031.htm

    I think it was more common the upgrade the armour by bolting on extra plates directly onto the hull (Zusatzpanzerung).
     
  5. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    Just wondering here, and I appreciate it makes no difference to the question being asked or answer being given, but the highlighted detail gives the tank's number as 80638, where the number on the tank looks more like 80538. I don't imagine it's significant one way or the other in the slightest though.
     
  6. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    .

    In the Osprey booklet , by B. Perrett ,

    " If the Polish campaign vindicated the concept of the Blitzkrieg , it also demonstrated that the armor basis of existing Germans tank designs was entirely inadequate .... the Ausfurung E saw an increase in the bow armor to
    50mm , while appliqué armor ( bolted on ) was retrofitted to existing model

    those "IV" would have been common in France , Low countries , Balkans and Barbarossa

    bigger and longer gun added to ever increasing armor saw the poor Type IV tilt the scales at 26 tons ex factory , appliqué armor being used again on the type H

    I was under the impression that bolted armor was poor practice for tanks as the vibrations and impacts would loosen the bolts

    .
     
  7. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    It is very bad to have the actual tank bolted together, for the reasons you state, but to simply add another layer of armour...

    Well, welding is still preferable, bur it is difficult to weld two flat plates together successfully.
     
  8. Anthax

    Anthax New Member

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    But welding only the edges are attached to eachother, by bolting you can just drill a hole anywhere you like. :)
     
  9. FNG phpbb3

    FNG phpbb3 New Member

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    were there whole tanks or at least turrets that are riveted or bolted togethor?

    FNG
     
  10. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    Once the additional armor was bolted on, the bolts themselves could be welded. This wasn't used in production because it was time consuming and expensive. Modifying an existing tank was still easier and cheaper than throwing it away and building a new one.
     
  11. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

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    FNG:
    Quite a number of armored vehicles utilized bolts as fasteners. The M3 Stuart/Honey comes to mind, the British Crusader's turret, the M3 Lee/Grant series, I think most all early Japanese armor, the Italian M.13/40... etc, etc.
    It was common practise until it was determined that those bolts could become man-killing, flying projectiles if struck by a shell and driven into the turret or hull.

    I'm not sure if manufacturing techniques simply got better, or planners realized they must find a solution to bolted-up armor.

    Shermans were routinely upgraded with welded, add-on armor plate. It was commonly seen on the side of the hull, and to at least the left side of the turret mantelet. Also Sherman track appeared to be welded to the sides, front... and each side of the turret on pix of British Fireflys I've seen. Some late-war "Easy-Eights" had a slab welded on the front glacis-plate as well.

    No bed-springs however...

    Tim
     
  12. FNG phpbb3

    FNG phpbb3 New Member

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    wouldn't welding tracks onto your armour encourage AP rounds to grip and push through whilst providing no more than than mm to the actual armour thickness?

    FNG
     
  13. Hoosier phpbb3

    Hoosier phpbb3 New Member

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    FNG:
    They were after "peace of mind" and were convinced it might help slow-down a high-velocity round.
    Not saying it was that effective, just that it was commonly done.

    Tim
     
  14. me262 phpbb3

    me262 phpbb3 New Member

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    sand bags were used but i do not think they were effective against ap rounds
     
  15. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    Although only the area immediately around that bolt is "attached" (Or at least most strongly connected), by drilling a hole in it you are weakening the plate. On the railway bolt holes in plated joints are regarded as the weakest point of any rail and are subjected to additional ultrasonic inspections, welds aren't.
     
  16. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    It is interesting that only the Americans (Shermans) ever had wleded applique armour.

    Russian:
    KV-1 - bolted

    German:
    Pz III - bolted
    Pz IV - bolted

    British:
    Churchill - bolted (and definately the ugliest applique armour going)
     
  17. Boba Nette

    Boba Nette New Member

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    That was only over specific areas.It probably did more to save the vehicle than the crew.
     
  18. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    .

    It's true that any drilling in a plate create a focus point for stress , the only thing worst is to have a sharp angle or a crack
    the only advantage of the bolting technique is that the old plate can be removed easily and replaced .

    Today it is simpler and faster to weld to fit and grind to remove

    P.S. stupid question but does today AFL have a 110 /220V ac outlet ??



    .
     
  19. Commando

    Commando recruit

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    Dunno. :D
     
  20. P5

    P5 Dishonorably Discharged

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    You are talking about the Dragon Panzer IV Ausf.E Vorpanzer? The Panzer IV was progressively up-armoured to reflect the increasing effectiveness of anti-tank weapons. One of the earlier improvements was to fit ‘vorpanzer’ or spaced armour to a limited number of early production Panzer IV, such as the Ausf D and E. These vehicles were issued to front line troops and used to assess the effectiveness of the concept. With spaced armour there is a gap between the outer armour plate and the tank’s main armour. With spaced armour, many shells types, such as APC, will detonate when they hit the outer armour and thus cause far less damage when they hit the inner armour. On the Panzer III and IV, spaced armour was more effective than having the supplementary (outer) armour plate fixed directly on top of the main armour plate.
     

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