Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theories' started by broke91hatch, Apr 16, 2008.
What are you drumming your fingers for? Have you already got that list of brown-navy Japanese aircraft carriers I'd asked for?
Sorry there Za LOL. I figured I would wait till we got the info were were asking for. LOL
Day of Deceit", by Robert Stinnet. Chock ful of recently declassified documents.
A must read. below is a link to the book online.
Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR ... - Google Books
Totally open to correction on this as I cannot remember were I read this.
After the war, Churchill ordered the distruction of all the Japaneese intercepts,I think they were called the "Purple"intercepts which Bletchley Park had collated.
I believe it was only the Japaneese intercepts that he wanted specifically destroyed.
Could it be they proved the UK knew what was going to happen at Pearl Harbour and allowed it to happen,to get the US finally into the war.
As I said not sure were I got this info,if anyone knows anything let me know.
Those "recently declassified documents" include items that were published in 1946. Sorry, I'm not impressed.
Odd that he would worry about a low-grade diplomatic cypher. Nomura and Kurusu were not told about the attack on Pearl Harbor for the simple reason that the Japanese Foreign Office knew nothing about it. So Purple messages were irrelevant.
Also, the Purple messages the US collected were published in The "Magic" Background to Pearl Harbor. So that urban legend just doesn't have any legs.
The US was breaking th "Purple" code long before the nice folks at Bletchley; their ability to do so came to fruition when the US gave them a "Purple" machine.
Whatever Churchill did or did not do is irrelevant. As Larry pointed out the "Purple" decrypts are available in the US archives and those that specifically deal with the outbreak of the war were published for public consumption long ago.
That dog won't hunt. You were misinformed.
The "Magic" Background To Pearl Harbor
The real issue in my mind is how much of the JN25B naval code were we reading and what was decrypted prior to the attack. We will never know the truth until the NSA declassifies those documents. It is also painfully clear the NSA has been misleading (at the very least) as to the size and complexity of the code. Several NSA publications stated it was 55-57K characters when in reality it was less than 16k. The truth is even for the time JN25B was a joke of a code. The NSA was also misleading about the number of personel working on Japanese naval codes. Navy group OP-20-G had 738 men working on Japanese naval codes. I read an article by a retired NSA officer who stated only a "few" men were working on the codes. There's absolutely no reason why all documents related to prewar Japanese naval codes shouldn't be released. I'm not prepared to say we knew exactly what was coming and when, but when there's smoke..... It sure would have been cool to see 6 squadrons of SBD's hurtling down on Kido Butai on Dec 6th.
It would be nice to see all that material declassified, but until it has been I suggest withholding judgment until we're aware of the full facts in the matter.
However, given the overall picture we really don't need that file. If the USN or FDR had known the attack was coming there is absolutely no good reason for them to have "just let it happen."
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I made a judgement. Your reply is a bit contradictory. First you say it would be nice to see the material declassified and I should withhold judgement until then. How can anyone make a judgement without the key facts? Then you say we don't need to see it. Why? What exactly do you mean by the "overall picture". I don't know why the USN or FDR would allow the attack to happen and frankly I don't care, but you are making an assumption backed by nothing as far as FDR's intentions. I'm tired of being spoon fed all the bs about WWII that seems to permeate mainstream history. I just want to know the truth
Okay, first off, I started looking at Pearl Harbor in 1965 after being given a full set of the Congressional Hearings. It took me four years to read the whole thing. THAT is the big picture. I followed that up by reading everything I could find on Pearl Harbor, including books translated from several foreign languages. (I used to have a file of "howlers" from those books, but that 6-7 moves ago.)
Now, if you take a thorough knowledge of the events and contrast that to the various wild theories about Pearl Harbor that fuel the conspiracy theory industry it's easy to see the logical fallacies of those theories. It's rather like putting an elephant in black and white stripes in with a herd of zebras. "See, four legs, stripes? It's got to be a zebra!"
Why do you insist on referring to my very specific and rational questions about PH as conspiracy theory run amok? The FACT is we were reading at least as much of JN25 before PH as we were led to believe we were reading at Midway. The truth is the NSA has systematically misled us about every aspect of prewar JN25 codebreaking. Since you pride yourself on your PH knowledge you should bother to read the book in question. I'll say it again, it doesn't prove anything in and of itself. WHY WON'T THEY RELEASE THE DECRYPTS??? Why don't you think it matters? Is the NSA hiding something? If there's a conspiracy this is where its at. Spare me the conspiracy theory garbage, this isn't the 'the carriers were not in port there must be a conspiracy' crap. Also, if the only answers you have are 'they would never do that' or 'it could never be kept secret', those are not factual arguments. That's your opinion. How would anyone know for sure what has or has not been kept secret?
You just answered your own question.
Stormy, you and Opana have valid points. However, I lean towards Opana's side, which I think is plainly supported by what is already available in open literature. However, I agree with you that whatever is still hidden should be released yet I won't go as far as implying there's something rotten in whatever is being kept out of view. Who knows, really? Personally, I think it's just bureacratic inertia that's keeping those remaining files hidden.
And if/when they are released and no smoking gun is found there, "some people" will simply move on to new idées fixe.
I was assured by Mark Wiley that SRH-149 would show conclusively that we had broken the JN-25 codes, no doubt about it, but the government was keeping SRH-149 from us. Curious, I called the Naval Historical Center and asked about it. They advised me that it had been for sale via the GPO for years. I got a copy, digitized it, and put it on the web. No smoking gun.
Stormy appears to know more about the USN's progress on breaking JN-25B than anyone has yet to publish. Perhaps he could be so kind as to enlighten us as to his sources for his revelations. Perhaps some period document, eh?
It's a pity Budiansky isn't here to be enlightened.