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Pearl Harbor Conspiracy?

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theories' started by broke91hatch, Apr 16, 2008.

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  1. StormyB4

    StormyB4 Member

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    You don't know, so you can't say there's no harm to releasing them. Is that clear?

    And you don't know there's any harm in releasing them, that's why I said it's pointless.

    You are promoting a conspiracy theory. That's why I keep saying it. I'm not interested in your motivations, even if I were inclined to believe what you say about them.

    No, I'm not promoting your stereotypical view of this CT. You keep telling us you feel I am, it doesn't make it true. Obviously I don't care what you "believe", or your feelings either.

    I said it would be nice to see those decrypts. It would shut up the fringers about them. But then they'd just go on to something else. Other than that, I'm not particularly interested in them. If we had been reading JN-25b before Pearl Harbor we wouldn't have been struggling so hard to find out what "AF" was six months laters

    Your attitude toward seeing these decrypts is at odds with this supposed lifelong devotion to WWII knowledge. I think you should rethink the Midway comment considering the inaccuracy of story of the battle up to 5 years ago. Do you still think 'Kido Butai' was loaded with armed and fueled aircraft ready to attack TF16 and 17 when the SBD's came hurtling down? Maybe Fuchida, Kurita, and their staff made up a story when they were sailing back to Japan with their tails between their legs. Or is that a conspiracy theory?

    I'll quote you again, "we should withhold judgement until we have all the facts" Were you being rhetorical, or do you really believe that?
     
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    You comment on Midway is irrelevant.

    You are repeating a very common conspiracy theory. This is not my opinion, it's flat-out fact. And we've probably had enough of that.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    About these "missing decrypts". What if anything is known about them? Do they even still exist? Did they ever?
     
  4. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    Stormy, Stormy, Stormy, I am so, so, so disappointed. <heavy sigh>

    Here I was thinking, hoping, you had something new to offer. Alas, you do not. You start down this road of JN-25B decrypts; yet, it is quickly obvious you really don’t know all that much about them do you? Big, bad, mean old NSA won’t let someone have the messages – not you, for I suspect you have never asked, you apparently are merely repeating some drivel you’ve read somewhere. Gee, could it be, maybe, this just might be because these materials are in the National Archives and the NSA is under no obligation to go ferreting out public documents not in their custody for inquiring individuals. Again, they are not being withheld by NSA as they are not under the control of the NSA. This is a myth perpetrated by the CT industry so that they don’t have to actually go to the expense to produce the messages; your repetition will not make it true.

    May I suggest that you plan a nice long vacation, take a trip to College Park, Maryland, and visit the Crane Library of the National Archives? Tell the nice folks at the Archives that you would like to take a look at CNSG5750 et seq., Crane Library Record Group 38.

    You are evidently not aware that there was a concerted effort in 1945 and 1946 to go back to those pre-Pearl Harbor JN-25B’s and see what was there. The result was a plethora of decrypts . . . none of which, NONE, was read in the days preceding the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    Are you aware of how many messages were being broken and read in 1941? Obviously you are not or you would not be expecting to find such. NSA has nothing to do with it, and the USN Op-20-G folks long ago reported their progress. See attachment documents for your benefit: “JN-25 Progress.pdf”. Apropos of nothing else, you may wish to note the “declassified” stamps complete with the NARA sourcing . . . NARA, that’s the National Archives, not NSA.

    The main IJN operations code in use in 1941 was called by the USN “AN-1” and employed what was called “AN-1 Cipher #2”. This later became known as the more commonly referred to JN-25B. In the attachment, note the tallies for September through November 1941. While additives and values (and if you don’t know how the JN-25 works you need to go find out, I won’t explain it to you as there are entire books on the subject, pretty thick one’s, too . . . I could recommend a few) are being recovered, no messages, unlike those as noted for diplomatic traffic, are being read. Last page of the attachment is quite clear on how many messages were being read overall. Note 1941 = “None”. Note, also, that except for brief flashes in July, September, and November 1943, the folks involved – the USN, there was no NSA in those days – were usually pretty much behind the curve in terms of currency . . . a typical problem.

    So, what exactly would you expect to find in your expedition to Maryland? And if a trip is not in your future – my crystal ball is dim – then, as Larry suggests, file an FOIA for all the AN-1/JN25B messages intercepted, decrypted, translated, and read by OP-20-G or any of its stations in 1941. You would want to ask for the actual intercepts themselves, not that you’d be able to read them, so you could compare date/time groups of interception with the date a particular message was deciphered and translated. Be prepared to shell out some major bucks . . . copies are not cheap and governmental agencies can charge their actual costs, including personnel time, for their responses to FOIA filings. You should also be prepared to end up with a whole bunch of intercepts and no decrypted messages. How disappointing will that be?

    Perhaps you can save yourself a trip and some large expenditures.

    Please note this link to “A History of US Communications Intelligence during World War II,” http://www.nsa.gov/about/_files/cryptologic_heritage/publications/wwii/history_us_comms.pdf
    of specific interest would be the last paragraph on page 23 and the top of page 24.

    Also for your edification, may I suggest you follow this link to “USN Communications Intelligence 1924-1941,” Pearl Harbor Revisited: U.S. Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941 and familiarize yourself with the information therein. This same document can also be found in a PDF format at
    http://www.nsa.gov/about/_files/cryptologic_heritage/publications/wwii/pearl_harbor_revisited.pdf if you want to download it. Either way, you might find Appendix A interesting as there are quite a few of your mysterious NSA withheld decrypts here.

    While you are at it, there’s also the “East-Wind-Rain” controversy. So before going down that long and winding road, see:
    http://www.nsa.gov/about/_files/cryptologic_heritage/publications/wwii/west_wind_clear.pdf

    Remember, it is always better from an historical standpoint to follow the trail of reliable information and data than rather to stand and repetitiously shout at it to make it go away. If you want to make the accepted research go away, then you have to go find real, reliable, and most importantly, verifiable information and data and present that. Not what someone thinks is being withheld, not what someone thinks might be withheld. As with the “would have’s,” “could have’s,” and “should have’s,” innuendo also does not count. Be prepared for some big disappointment, reality can be such a bite.

    But, hey, if you want to do your part for the economy, be my guest.

    Regards etc
     

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