Please help with grandpa's WWII info

Hi there. I am hopeful that you wise ones may be able to help me find some info. about my grandfather's WWII experience.
A few years ago I found his separation papers. Marvin Smith, 34 166 097, Date of service: 17 Jan 42 to 9 Oct 45. He had already passed away, and I am still kicking myself that I do not have a taped interview of his experience. Anyway, he had lots of awards: Bronze Star, Good Conduct, American Campaign, European African Middle Eastern Campaign w/ triple bronze star attachment, WWII victory medal, Combat Infantry Badge 1st Award, Honorable service lapel button and Marksman badge with rifle bar. I wrote to the army. They informed me that all of his records burned in a fire in 1973 (I think that is the year). They asked me to send a copy of his separation. I did and the army, one year later sent all of his medals to me. My grandfather did not take his medals after the war. He always said, "It would not have been right to take the medals." I think he had a great deal of remorse for his fallen friends.
Anyway, here is my question. I have no info. on his division, regiment, battalion or company. I would love to trace his footsteps through the war. After reading hundreds of blogs and websites I think he may have been in the 5th Division, 11th infantry regiment, 1st battalion, Company D. I know for sure he served under Patton at some point during the war. He was with him during the Battle of the Bulge. From a letter he wrote to my grandmother I have the date July 13 1944 as the day he, "went in." The address my grandmother had to send him letters was 11th infantry, company D. However the 11th infantry division was a ficticious division made up to throw the Germans off. I am guess the 5th Division because he entered service at Ft. McClellan, AL. His base is listed as United Kingdom Base APO 413, but this base was a top secret intelligence base. So I think this is wrong. They also have the year of his birth wrong. His ASR score was 85 (why so high?) Why did he stay so long? He was also AW 107 for 17 days.
Because of the fire the army has told me that I actually have more info. than they do. However, I have written to them again asking for more information. I think my grandfather was awarded a purple heart. He was blown from a fox hole and the man with him was KIA. Is there anyway I can confirm the purple heart. It is not on his separation papers, but I understand it would be listed with the hospital and not on his papers.
Clearly I am obsessed with this and would appreciate any help that anyone can offer. I would love to take my children to the places where he fought for them.
Thanks a million,
Tammy
Cornelia, GA

 

Here is some additional specific information on
PFC Marvin Smith
34 166 097
Service Arrival Dates
European Theater 4 Dec 42
United States 4 Oct 45
Place of Entry: Ft. McClellan, AL
Separation Center: Ft. McPherson, Georgia

Normandy Invasion GO 33 WD 45
Rhineland GO 40 WD 45
Northern France GO 46 W 45
European Arfican Middle Eastern
Combat Infantryman
MM Rifle

Arm or Service DML
Component AUS

United Kingdom Base APO 413

DOB 18 Oct 17

Convenience of the Government RR 1-1 (Demobilization) AR 615-365 15 Dec 44
ASR 85
Lost 17 days under AW 107
Lapel Button Issued

I have a picture of him when he first enlisted, but there are no patches. He has a pin on the front of his uniform that has a blue background with a rifle in silver. He has two round pins on the lapels but I can't see what they are. He talked of being in Iceland, France, England, Italy and possibly Ireland. In a letter to my grandmother he said he saw his first German on July 13, 1944.

Thanks

 

Thank you Jeff. I am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. These infantry guys moved around and changed divisions so much that it is hard to decifer.

The photo is framed with medals, but I think I can use my digital to take a picture and post it. We are getting ready for church. I will get something posted later today. Thank you so much.
Tammy

 

Jeff: I have attached 3 versions of the photo I have of Marvin Smith. Also, I recently purchased "Index to the General Orders" (first edition) Patton's 3rd Army in WW II by Brandon T. Wiegand (just because I know for sure he served under Patton at some point). Marvin Smith is NOT listed in these GO lists. However, there are 2 other editions. I wonder if he is listed in one of the other editions or maybe he is not listed in the 3rd army because he started out in the 1st army 5th division. I have done my best at the research but I can never get a definitive answer with a name confirmation etc. Thanks for all of your help. Tammy

 

Tammy,
I have a bunch of Brandon Wiegand's books myself, and they are excellent references. I have the 1st Army book at home, so I'll look up your grandfather when I get home from work. If he's not listed there, I'd recommend getting the 5th Infantry Division's book. There is also an index to the GO's of the 11th Infantry Regiment, which I'd also recommend picking up. You're more likely to find him listed in the Regimental or Divisional books.

Brandon's website is DDay Militaria and he also sells the Indexes on eBay under the screename ddaymilitaria.

Love the display you did

 

The badge with the blue background and rifle is the Combat Infantryman Badge and the pins on his collar would be the "U.S." and Infantry (crossed rifles) discs.

 

Jeff:
Thanks for the info. I e-mailed Brandon. Very nice guy with more info. I have copied his e-mail to me below. He explains the nature of the books and says in a later e-mail that the bronze star is CIB conversion. Of the awards 3 are described as GO but none have a division or regiment associated in the description just GO. He went as far as checking the 11th infantry book and my grandfather is not listed. So the question is who awarded him the medals (1st army or 5th division or other). We have eliminated 3rd army as the awarder and 11th infantry. If you have a 5th division book can you check to see if a Marvin Smith (no middle) is listed? His awards are listed above. If he is there I will buy it right away. These books can get expensive! But, they are very good and worth it.

Thanks again. And thanks for enjoying my grandpa's display. He was my hero!

Tammy

Most of what appears on your relative's spereration report are not decorations: please see the link near the bottom of the following webpage for explinations of service medals, good conduct medals and unit awards. It a matter of definations of Decorations v's Medals v's Awards. There are an actual difference. http://www.ddaymilitaria.com/Frequently%20asked%20questions%202.htm

My books are indecies of the general orders issued by a given command not a listing of all members of a given organization who received decorations. The latter is not partical at this point as different levels of commands have differing authority to award decorations.

Commands above the divisional level are more or less administrative in nature. Technically the Corps is the highest tactical organization. But in reality Corps, Armies, Army Groups and theater level commands are not organized ina fixed nature their componenant organizations change on a daily basis. X division would be relieved from Y Corps, due to high combat losses and reassigned to X corps in a more quite sector to rest and refit. When this was completed it would be reasigned to a hot sedctor once again but not necessarily unit Y corps. Some divisons were moved from the 1st Army area up againist the Britis Forces all the way to the 7th Army's Area on the southern portion of the front to stop German penetrations.

All this said more then 1 or 2 million men served under the 3rd Army during combat operations during WWII, so identifing with an Army is not very describtive and not correct for most soldiers during their time in combat.

All that said there is a Marvin D. Smith in my 11th Infantry Regiment Book



Brandon T. Wiegand

 

Hi Tammy,
Unfortunately, I don't have the 5th Infantry Division book, but I do have the Unit Citation and Campaign Participation Credit Register from WWII up til 1961. I'll look up his unit tomorrow morning and see if he's entitled to any unit citations to go along with his medals. Unit citations are almost never included in a soldier's DD-214. As an example, my grandfather's lists his Good Conduct Medal, American Campaign Medal, Europe-Africa-Middle East Medals, and the five campaigns he served in (due to his 1945 discharge, the WWII Victory and Army of Occupation Medals weren't listed). However, it wasn't until I got the Unit Citation Register in the early 90's that I found out he was also entitled to a Meritorious Unit Commendation. His comment was "hey, I guess we did something good. I wonder what it was", followed by a good chuckle.

I should also mention I couldn't find Marvin Smith listed in the 1st Army book. Definitely pick up the 11th Regiment and 5th Division books. Even if he isn't listed, other members of his outfit might be, so that makes them worth having

Glad to see Brandon got back to you so fast. He's a great guy, and is always a pleasure to do business with. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't have been able to obtain the citations for two of my great uncle's Bronze Star Medals. I should also note that sometimes there are men omitted from his books, not thru his error, but because the GO's have gone missing over the years. I've looked up men in some of the books I have that I know have earned say a Silver Star or a Belgian Croix de Guerre, but they aren't listed. Unfortunately, with paperwork in the Army after WWII a lot was either lost or thrown out through carelessness or by accident.

Another good way to research his service would be to find out if there is a veteran's association for the 11th Infantry Regiment. I'm pretty sure there is, but you may have to check up on that. Someone at the association may be able to dig up information for you, or even put you in touch with someone who served with him. They key is to be patient.

 

Hi Jeff C. and Jeff. Thank you for sticking with me on this search. I really appreciate your info. It is the very best help I have found in the many years of research related to my grandpa's service. I am going to get busy looking into the 11th infantry regiment. I will let you know the result. Jeff C. if you do not mind checking in your Unit Citation book that will be great. I will keep my fingers crossed that he may be there, and I can get a confirmed division, unit, regiment etc. I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.
In the meantime, if anything else comes to you please don't hesitate to let me know. I will follow up on anything you suggest. I also have requested info. from the national archives in hopes that they may have something on film. I also went to a site that someone suggested from these blogs and found the WW II National Memorial in D.C. I listed my grandpa on the national registry with his dates of service. I wish I had more info. but maybe I can update it later.

Thanks a million!

Tammy

 

Here's a few things on his discharge papers:

Component AUS means Army of the United States. The US Army in wartime consists of the United States Army, the National Guard, and the Army of the United States. The last consists of draftees not volunteers or Guardsmen. This indicates he was drafted.

The base APO number is typical. First, the bases the US Army had in England during the war were primarily temporary ones with no particular designation or address. Second, it was a security measure to only have the Army Post Office number designating it. I couldn't tell you where that particular base was though.

His discharge was "for convienence of the government" meaning the war ended and he, as a draftee was no longer needed. The RR 1-1 is his reenlistment code if he chose to sign up again. A 1-1 means the Army would have easily taken him if he reenlisted.

The AW 107 17 days means he was charged with an infraction of the Articles of War section 107 (today this is the Uniform Code of Military Justice) and lost 17 days of service time as a penality (probably also some pay and possibly rank). Such annotations are very common on enlisted service records of the time.

As far as awards go, these are frequently not put on the discharge papers for first time enlistees, draftees, or low ranked personnel simply because clerks are sloppy or lazy. My own DD 214 had to be retyped a half dozen times before I'd sign it for that very reason. Often such soldiers are more interested in just getting their discharge and out of the Army than in whether they have a particular award listed or not.
This issue became important towards the end of the war when rotation home and discharges were being issued on the basis of time in combat, awards issued, and other similar things. Many troops were suddenly very interested in medals and paperwork they they thought was "chicken shit" (to use the term of the day) just a few months earlier.
So, it is very possible that he got awards that are not listed but were in his records.

 

Hi Tammy,
I just looked up Company D, 11th Infantry Regiment, but no unit citations were listed.

Its campaign participation credits would be:
-Normandy 1944
-Northern France 1944
-Rhineland 1944-45
-Ardennes-Alsace 1944-45
-Central Europe 1945

In addition to the campaign credits, members of the 11th Infantry would be qualified for the Army of Occupation Medal with "Germany" clasp for service in the occupation of Germany from 20 May - 18 June 1945.

Hope this helps!

 

Hey guys. OK...I have been researching all day. XX corps S. of Metz. 11th infantry held the left wing facing N and E. Checked out the Prayelle Farm and even saw pics of the deceased lying on a dirt road. Even found one on my own: Ft. Plappeville Dec. 7 surrender to the 11th infantry. All great info. and rewarding reading. Now that my eyes are crossed I am still not for certain that he served in these divisions or regiments. That is pretty frustrating. I have not found anything that leads to a conclusion. I did look at the pictures very closely to see if anything jumped out at me. They all kinda look alike, although I have this belief that if I saw my grandpa I would recognize him right away. I guess that is kinda crazy.

I will check into the Army of Occupation medal with the German clasp. Do I need to file a new request or can I use the old number and update it for the request? I will see what I can do. (More chicken shit--I do remember him calling them that I just did not want to offend anyone). He just hated the war and all that he had to do.

Right now I am going with 5th Division, 11th infantry regiment, 1st battalion, company D, but this is all a good guess. My goal is to get to a confirmation of this info. So far he is not listed anywhere.

I will keep digging.

Thanks a ton for your help.

Tammy

 

If you know that much it might be worth your time to pay a researcher at the National Achieves to get you copies of the battalion after action reports for the period in question. These are usually still available. They may give you a clue to exact operations and possibly even mention names of personnel you might be able to contact through a veteran's group.

Oh, on the medals: GO is "General Order" and WD is War Department. Basically, on the campaign medals a general order by the war department is issued stating something like "Everybody that was in this particular theater, operation, whatever, between date A and B is entitled to wear the Something or Other Campaign medal." I have gotten a couple of these awards. Unit awards are similar in nature.

You might also find this interesting:

New WW II APO Book Now Available

 

Hi fellas:
I found this valuable info. (see attachment). This is the 5th Division with dates for time periods that they served under different Armies and Corps. I think this will help with more research. It looks like the 5th ID was in the 12th Corp. most of the time. They were in the 1st Army (Normandy--July 44) for a while and the 3rd Army (France, Germany) for the majority of the time. This makes sense because my grandfather did serve under Patton and was the recipient of some of the General's famous speeches during the war. He did not like Patton, but said he would not go into a battle with anyone else. (He also used a lot of cuss words whenever Patton's name came up).

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/ETO-OB/5id-eto.htm

Jeff: You mentioned something that jogged my memory. You say that Company D is a machine gun and 81 mm mortar company. Would it have been possible for my grandfather to carry some type of gun on his back? He would bend over and the gun would be fired off of his back while he was bent over somehow? (I don't know if I explained that very well). My grandfather had hearing loss due to this and got disability from the Army for hearing loss and I think frozen feet. His feet were in terrible shape from the war. He had circulation problems his whole life from the freezing, I guess frost bite maybe.
Another story that may help: When he came ashore at Normandy and began the march through France one of the first things he saw (I don't know the town or place) was a dead paratrooper entangled in a tree. Were the paratroopers who missed their landing behind Utah? Utah is where the 5th landed in July 1944. He said this was the image he had in his mind throughout the war. His impression was that the paratrooper got entangled in the tree and a German climbed the tree and cut the boys throat. He was pretty detailed about this image. He said it made him so mad that it probably saved his life during the war.(?)

T.A.-I have the letters my grandfather sent to my grandmother (not with me right now--in Alabama)--Would the postal code book give me info. on his station if they are coming out of ETO to USA? I do not have any letters she sent to him. Are you thinking that I can get the base from the postal codes and then research what divisions were at that base on the date the letter was mailed? I have letters from 42-45 with stamps. Also, the letters return is : Marvin Smith, 11th Infantry, Company D. Would this be accurate or did the men use false info. on their letters home? Would this be accurate and true? If it is true then the only 11th infantry (that I have found) is in the 5th division during WW II so that would mean BINGO we have our for certain confirmation! Even though I do not have anything with his name and the association during wartime.

Tammy

 

Jeff:
I was thinking the same thing. The 5th did not land until July. But, he talked about all the stuff in the water. He said that the amount of personal stuff was just unreal, "it was all around, everywhere." He also talked about artillery hitting the water and what that was like, but the beach was clear before the 5th ever went in. He said he saw his first German on July 13, 1944, but the 5th did not engage until July 26th at Vidouville. So I am confused. The very few stories that I have in my head were from my childhood, but certain ones I remember clearly. Some of the info. adds up perfectly, but some of it does not add up at all. I have an e-mail request and signature verification in to the NPRC Web (3/24). I have requested division and unit information. Maybe just maybe they will have something.

Still searching. Thank you so much for all or your help. What a puzzle.

Tammy